Philip at Chaeronea

[Nicator]

Hello fellow Pothosians,I'm trying to figure out whether or not Philip was mounted on and led cavalry from the right ahead of (or protecting flank) the Phalanx. Green mentions that Philip and the Guards Brigade moved back, still facing front...blah, blah, blah...then on the next page he is calling off his cavalry pursuit...still not sure if he's talking about his army's cavalry pursuit (in general) or his very own cavalry pursuit, i.e...with him leading the way. later Nicator

[davej]

Hi Nick,I beleive that Alexander led the Cavalry on the right and destroyed the Sacred band. Philip I think was in the centre controling the Infantry. The timing of the feigned retreat was vital and could not be trusted to just anybody. Rahe has a good article on it if you want it.

[Nicator1]

Hello Dave,Alexander led the Companions on the left during this battle. It was the only time that he has been recorded as leading on the left, all other battles he was stationed on the right like all good Macedonian and Greek Kings. It was the place of honor. He may also have remembered the fate of Epaminondas who lost his life while leading from the left against Sparta's "Red Cloaks".

[davej]

You are right of course, I am getting my rights and lefts mixed up. The Thebans were on the right which means the Macedonians facing them are on the left. Oh Derrrrrr Dave.

[jan]

Does anyone know who the court historian is for this piece of history?

[John.]

Alexander's friend Theopompus, who wrote the "Philippica."- Incidentally, I read your post where you agreed with me, saying, in your words, that Alexander "was straight, not gay," and Marcus' heated response, where he had to give you a "lambasting," and used the word "bigot" (to describe me?) I wonder how Marcus would describe Alexander's friend Theopompus, who, in his Philippica, wrote the following about Philip and his court:"Philip's court in Macedonia was the gathering-place for all the most debauced and brazen-faced characters in Greece or abroad, who were there styled the king's companions. For Philip in general showed no favour to men of good repute who were careful of their property, but those he honoured and promoted were spendthrifts who passed their time drinking and gambling. In consequence he not only encouraged them in their vices, but made them past masters in every kind of wickedness and lewdness. Was there anything indeed disgraceful and shocking that they did not practise, and was there anything good and creditable that they did not leave undone? Some of them used to shave their bodies and make them smooth although they were men, and others actually practised lewdness with each other though bearded. While carrying about two or three minions with them they served others in the same capacity, so that we would be justified in calling them not courtiers but courtesans and not soldiers but strumpets. For being by nature man-slayers they became by their practices man-whores. In a word, not to be prolix, and especially as I am beset by such a deluge of other matters, my opinion is that those who were called Philip's friends and companions were worse brutes and of a more beastly disposition than Centaurs who established themselves on Pelion, or those Laestrygones who dwelt in the plain of Leontini, or any other monsters."Also, look into the reason why Philip was assassinated, and his reaction to Alexander's complete annihilation of the Theban Sacred Band. I think Alexander was trying to show himself as "different" than Philip and his companions.John

[Tre]

Alexander was different from Philip in that he conducted himself honorably which Philip did not do much of the time, i.e. he tried to keep his word. Unfortunately as Alexander grew older and wore the mantle of Kingship, he became more like his father, which is certainly something he never intended to do. Sometimes the job makes the man rather than the reverse, no matter hard the man tries.As for Alexander's sexuality, it is obvious for anyone who reads the histories. You have to do a whole lot of arguing away history to come up with the view that he was exclusively homosexual or straight. What can be said safely however, is sex was not a priority in his life.

[John.]

Let me leave sex out of this...Let's just take Theopompus' comments on Philip's mismanagement of money, and compare Philip to Alexander in that realm.At Philip's death, Philip was in debt; at Alexander's death, Alexander was the wealthiest man ever to walk the face of the earth.If money is really an aphrodisiac, aren't you girls excited by Alexander? Oh yeah, I'm supposed to leave sex out of it...John

[Tre]

Alas, John, the egotesticle world view does not get a, err, rise out of me. Besides, I have better one liners :-)As a matter of fact, I do not think Alexander was particularly good with money. There are numerous times the King ran out of coin during the campaign. A careful analysis of the economic situation, a large standing army, the size of the empire and the spending habits of Alexander suggests that he would have had to keep waging war to keep the money flowing. As for your quoting of the ancient sources on Philip, note as well that Theophratus had some unpleasant comments regarding Alexander and his virility. Attacking the sexual habits of an enemy is typical of those times as well as our own. One should always take such 'catty' remarks with a large grain of salt.Regards,Tre

[John.]

I didn't realize that Theophrastus was Alexander's enemy. But that would make sense, since Theophrastus was Aristotle's appointed successor, and Aristotle is the one who cooked up the poison that killed Alexander. - Perhaps upset at what Alexander did to Aristotle's nephew Callisthenes, the historian.John

[Me]

Careful here, John...
The womwn on this Forum have not, to my knowledge, discussed Alexander's wealth.
(And he may have had access to wealth, but he himself was not that good with money- it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had he lived..) The women HAVE discussed his character, his accomplishments and his effect on world history, so I suspect they are attracted to Alexander, at least most of them, for the same reasons you are. And even then, there may well be a slight touch of homoeroticism to the attraction men feel towards Alexander.. T.E. Lawrence has the same effect on men and women, too, and he definitely had no money! Hard to say what makes certain people compel others to follow them, or become "fascinated" with them.
... that said, had Philip not been assassinated, Alexander may have wound up just a footnote...or dying in some province he was assigned to govern or conquer for his father... or an embittered, frustrated king-in-waiting. Fate takes odd pathways.

[John.]

I had to get her upset, so she would spill some beans - like the one about Theophrastus. Somehow I missed that Theophrastus was an enemy of Alexander. Now things are clearer. I want to see clearly who were the conspirators against Alexander... Aristotle, Callisthenes, Theophrastus, Antipater, Cassander, Iolus... all these little people working together to bring down the giant.Unfortunately for them, when the giant fell, he fell on top of them. Now if he could just get up, and dust himself off, see the little people run.John

[Nicator]

...hhmmm, is anyone going to take a crack at the actual question, or just rant on about whether or not ATG was gay?

[John.]

That's right. You were asking about the battle of Chaironea...Well, I can't draw from my trustworthy source Arrian, since he only describes battles that occured after Alexander became king.And Theopompus' description of the battle from his 58 book Philippica has been "lost."And I would never use Plutarch as a source for battles, or Diodorus...I could break out the crystal ball... OK I see Philip and his generals gathered together, drawing up the battle plan for Chaironea. Philip: "Alright, who do we place against the Theban Sacred Band?" Philip's companions thought they heard a stupid question, and someone speaks up: "Why, Mr. anti-homo himself, of course." And they all have a raucous laugh, understanding at the same time that a strange fate is involved in giving Alexander the opportunity to vent his wrath against the most famous gay soldiers.Well, how can you keep gay musings out of a discussion that involves the Theban Sacred Band?As for the rest of the battle, the crystal ball is not co-operating. "Ask again later," it says.Seriously, I have to get out of this Forum for a while, before I get stuck.Happy hunting,John

[S]

Greetings Nick,
Working on it- just pulling some scenarios together for you. Computer is the problem; that, and time! Will post when I can, if no one else answers before I can get back to you.
Regards,
Sikander
PS- Just how *is* that epic poem coming along since the last time I read some of it? Are you adding to it or refining it?