What was the language spoken in Macedonia at the time of Phi

[Shelby]

I have a curious question I am certain some of you (all of you) would know the answer to: What language did the people of Macedonia speak at the time of Phillip and Alexander? I know they considered themselves Greek and that an earlier King of Macedonia had striven to prove he was Greek so that he could compete in the Greek games. I also know that the Greeks at best considered the Macedonians to be poor country cousins. Alexander, of course, spoke Greek. Nevertheless, I have always wondered if the Macedonians as a people spoke Greek. Did they? If not, what did they speak and how closely related was it to Greek?

[susan]

I know that this subject has been discussed many times on the forum. I think the general consensus is that Macedonian was a form of Greek - no doubt a dialect and with borrowings from other non-Greek languages in the surrounding area, such as Illyrian.Maybe it was in some ways similar to Scottish - (not Gaelic), which is English but spoken with a broad accent and with many non-standard words and terms. Spoken with a Glaswegian accent ( ie by someone from Glasgow), it can be very difficult for someone from the south of England to understand - but it is still English.Susan

[marcus]

Good analogy with Glaswegian, Susan - that's how I always like to think of it. I have a colleague from Glasgow and I swear he is unintelligable most of the time... but he's still speaking English.Greek will almost certainly have been the lingua franca, spoken at the court, (similar to the way LAtin was the lingua franca in Medieval Europe) but the rank and file Macedonians will have spoken their 'Glaswegian' dialect... there's been a lot of debate, largely between the late NGL Hammond and Brian Bosworth, about the significance of Alexander calling for his bodyguards in Macedonian, during the Cleitus affair, which I think sums it up rather nicely.All the bestMarcus

[yiannis]

What about the writen records? Are they in various Greek dialects or just one?
At least the coins seem to be in a form of Attic (?).

[dean]

Hello,
Some time ago I wondered the exact same thing as yourself."Koinh"- or Koine in English is the dialect of Greek that Alexander and his Macedonians spread throughout the world- such that it was the language used to write the new testament.I understand that it was a more vulgar version of Greek and also a predecessor of demotic Greek, used today.
In Curtius there is a curious sentence where it states that Philotas was offered by Alexander to testify in Macedonian when on trial for treason. The sentence is of dubious origin. But shows that there were considerable differences from Attic Greek and the Greek spoken in Macedon.All the best,
Dean.

[Linda]

As a Glaswegian, I would have to disagree, Marcus and Susan... Just because you can't understand us doesn't mean it isn't English. We can't understand you - we are just politer. :)I think there must have been more of a difference, as the "Macedonian or Greek" choice to Philotas would suggest. Maybe the difference between Scots and English a few hundred years ago would be a better analogy, with different words for many things, the more educated people writing in English.

[agesilaos]

The actual evidence for spoken Macedonian is scant to say the least; it can be narrowed down to place names, certain technical terms which the scholiasts comment upon and personal names. This does not provide a great deal to go on. However it is clear that it was dialectically discreet from Attic more so even than Dorian greek as spoken in Sparta.The evidence of the coins is moot since all thay have is the genitive form of the King's name and title. Nor is Koine the Greek spread by the Macedonians alone it is the compromise of that aned the local dialects of their many greek mercenaries.Makadoniste cannot have been too alien to Greek as has been stated but probably had strong Illyro-Thracian influences and a more Archaic tone; displayed in the -issa ending for instance. I would imagine a language closer to Homer than Demosthenes which rattled off would seem obscure.The crux off Hammond's argument is that he thinks Alexander's use of Makadoniste was a pre-arranged signal rather than Bosworth's interpretation of a man drunk and angry reverting to his native tongue, you can take the man out of the country etc. Anyone who has read my posts will guess which I support!The trial of Philotas is not dubious in my opinion the point is that Philotas doesn't want to be stitched up by his Macedonian enemies and so wants the whole army to understand what is being said, including the greater part of his own corps, the companion cavalry who were substantially non-Macedonian.I always think of German and Alte-Deutsch as parallels, or perhaps Chaucer for the Dorians, Shakespeare for the Northern Greeks (Thessaly et al) Jane Austen for Attic and Beowulf for Makadoniste with Jacobean bloodbaths for Koine.

[marcus]

Hi Linda,Apologies - no insult was intended - but please note that Susan and I never said it isn't English. In fact, far from it. And I have as much difficulty with Geordie accents, too, if that helps to dig me out of the hole (probably digs my hole deeper, actually).But, thinking about it, you are probably right - the Scots/English as spoken three or four hundred years ago might be a better analogy. There were far many more actual differences in the language than there are now.All the best (signing off before he gets into more trouble!)MArcus

[nick]

I can't resist to react from a linguist point of view.In linguistics there is actually no clear distinction between a language and a dialect. What we define as a "language" is determined by cultural and political factors, not by a linguistic concept. In fact, I would argue, the world is just one giant bazaar of dialects and we tend to cluster the related dialects into a "groups" that we like to call "languages". But the decision what the boundary of that group is, is always arbitrary.The best definition of a language I have ever read (I forgot who wrote that) is: "A language is a dialect with a flag and an army."That sums up the whole issue I think.In our modern times what is considered a "language" is often decided upon by some (national) authority. In The Netherlands Dutch is of course the traditional national language, but our Dutch government has declared that both Frisian (spoken in the north) and Limburgs (spoken in the deep south) are officially recognized as languages. The recognition of Limburgs as a language is of very recent date and quite arbitrary: other regional tongues might have shared the same privilige and the decision relies heavily on a strong wish for recognition of a specific regional identity.In Alexander's time there was no authority to decide what was a language and what not. Everybody tends to agree that Macedonians certainly spoke a Greek-related dialect. The question if we should consider that a language, has be answered by asking ourselves if Macedon was a separate national or cultural unity that warrants the label "language".Regards -
Nick

[yiannis]

Indeed the ...issa endings are considered to be proto-hellenic (e.g. Larissa etc).
But I'd like to return to the writen language issue. Apart from the coins were there any inscriptions or other written material in Macedonian dialect? If not, was everything found in a specific greek dialect or many or a combination or...?
My knowledge on the subject is really limited but To my understanding the inscription are solely in Greek.

[Yannis]

Dear ALL,
Macedonian was patois Greek.
I have some arguments:
1. Macedonian names, toponyms, monthsGÇÖ names are almost all Greek. Some of them were local Macedonian but always Greek.
2. Macedonians derived many new Greek words as names and toponyms. This could be made at that time by Greek speakers only, I think. For instance the word Thessaloniki that is last Macedonian capital is the composition of the word Thessaly, that is the Greek region southern of Macedonia and the Greek word niki (+¡+ƒ+¬+º) that is victory. Philip B had a victory over Thessalians and derived and gave that name to his daughter, AlexanderGÇÖs step sister. Kassander that reigned Macedonia after Alexander married that Thessaloniki and gave her name to the city he built at -315.
3. LetGÇÖs see more carefully what Curtius wrote about PhilotasGÇÖ trial:
Quintus Curtius Rufus speaking at 6.9.35....
It is Filotas' judgment. He has been asked by Alexander the Great whether
he will show in Macedonian as the official process laid. He answers:
"Praeter Macedones plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam percepturos
arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu egisti; non ob aliud, credo,
quam ut oratio tua intelligi posset a pluribus".
"Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will more
easily understand what I shall say if I use the same language which you
have employed, for no other reason, I suppose, than in order that you speech
might be understood by the greater number."
The crucial word here is "quos facilius" = more easily.
Filotas says that if he speak Koine, the non-Macedonian people around would
more easily understand him than if he speak Macedonian. Doesn't this
statement imply that if he speak Macedonian the non-Macedonian ( that is Greeks of Greco-phone Illyrians, Agrianes,GǪ) people around will understand him but not that easily ??? IsnGÇÖt this the definition of a dialect?
Tho DIFFERENT languages are dialects if they are mutually intelligible.
This is an unbeatable argument on Macedonian language Greekness.
4. http://saussure.linguistlist.org/cfdocs ... ?code=XMAC
If you need more information, please let me know it.
Yannis the Macedonian
Macedonia, Greece

[aleksandar]

MAcedonians were called varvarians becouse they speak different language from the language spoken by the greeks.Today Macedonian speks macedonian and it s also very different language from greek