Greek Treachery Defeated the 300

[jasonxx]

A little off Alexander but I hope its ok. As we know we got 300 out today and the battle Is fascinating and the stories really have muddled the whole thing. Aswith teaching and movies they do give the lay reader the wrong Idea. The Every day joe thinks That Leonidas with 300 Spartans alone held the pass.

As we knoe the Spartan foce was a small eliment of a larger Greek force holding out against 100 000 men at the most in a bottle neck. I hope wed all accept that the Greeks could have held that pass indefinately as its known, No matter how big your army is you cant force a bottle neck in particulaly against better armed and trained Greeks.

Alexander would never have forced the Persian gates nor the Syrian gates had the Persians the good sense to hold the Cilicain gates As they did with the Persian gates.

So what defeated the Greeks at Thermopalai. The answer plain and simple a Greek called Ephialtes. As did the Persian traitor that lead Alexander around the Persians.

Paralu your the military tactician. Could the Persians have forced Thermopalai, without flanking.

Id say no.

Kenny

[keroro]

I agree with you Kenny, I believe that the Persians would have never got through Thermopylae without being able to outflank the Greeks. Something I have never understood is why they didn't use a fleet action to drop off a large contingent behind the Greeks and attack from both sides at once. The alternative would be to use the Rhinos (we know they had rhinos cos they're in 300 ) or elephants to break the Greek formations and then exploit the gaps that appeared. I seem to remember a discussion about whether the Persians had elephants at Thermopylae recently on Pothos, anyone remember that?

I also agree regarding Alexander and the Persians at the Silician Gates - though Alexander could have gone through Armenia if he wanted to avoid the Silician gates.

Ultimately it comes down to one of the old orders in the Art of War - force the enemy to fight on your terms. The Persians, when fighting the Greeks and later Macedonians, to often allowed themselves to be brought to battle in an unfavourable site.

[jasonxx]

Kereo Hail

Indeed your right. But darius didnt really fight the Pitched Battles on his or any ones terms. Both Actions Issus and Gaugamella were strategically and tactically correct. The only difference was Alexanders and the macedonians determination to fight and amybe the Persians not so stron willed. As soon as the Persians were crackedthey disintergrated.

However the Greek mercenaries for Dareius played much better.With your Idea about Xerxes nat landing forces further up I feel was an indication of confidence. He must have assumed on a grand gesture and basically steam roller straight over the Greeks. I feel Persian armies were basically pomp and show. like the americans we got the numbers and the toys but no real iron. I think darius showed similar arrogance by taking his whole family to watch his putting down of the Macedonain raider at Issus. Comming unstuck and losing his family in the procedds.

Kenny

[jasonxx]

Keroro

To second the point about Persian armies. I liken the Persian army to the huge Monster in the Godzilla Movie a giant noisy and loud. But as soon as it came into the sights of the rocket firing jet fighters it was easily killed.

Alexander and his army were those lethal precise killer jets. Size never counted for nothing.

kenny

[Paralus]

Paralu your the military tactician. Could the Persians have forced Thermopalai, without flanking.

General Paton I'm not Kenny. I'd not think it likely that the pass could be taken without a flanking movement or taking it from both side, as the Persians did.

Indeed, aside from supply, the Persian navy was to supply - one would think - that flanking movement by landing troops either at the gulf or in the rear. Luck and desperation held that movement at bay.

[Efstathios]

It actually depends on how many the Persians were. We can get a first indication by the fact that the sources say there were 20-30.000 Persian casualties. It is a logical number if you take into account the Greeks that were 10.000 intially, and the fierceness of the fight.

So that means that the army must have been more than 150.000, else with 20-30.000 casualties in an 150.000 army they would have fled. The army must have been twice as that at least in order to sustain that much casualties and still go on like nothing happened. And we dont know what would have happened if the treachery wasnt made.

In a narrow pass like that it is possible that the Greeks would have had little casualties and the Persians would have reached a number of casualties that would have made them to flee.Yet if the army was even more than 300.000 we cant know what would have happened.

I believe though that the Persians would have had to flee.

[jasonxx]

Staffi Hail

It dont matter how many the Persians had. They would never have forced the pass. A small Cork In a bottle can hold hundreds of Gallons. Its fair to say if the Persians kept Pressing the gates from one side Leonidas could have been confident of actual victory. And the Persians would have had to with draw.

He would ultimately as Paralus presses hve used his brains and or his fleet to ship forces round the pass. Alas Ephialtes saved there humiliation.

Even Alexander, Ghengis Khan or Caesar wouldnt have forced it.

Kenny

[ScottOden]

I don't think the Persians could use their fleet so long as Themistocles kept them bottled up in the Straits of Artemisium (I'm going off what I read in Tom Holland's 'Persian Fire'). But, I do agree. Had they not been flanked the Greeks could have held for quite a while.

Scott

[rjones2818]

Even Alexander, Ghengis Khan or Caesar wouldnt have forced it.

Kenny

Oh, come now!

Alexander would have found a way to turn the pass, it was one of his specialties. My guess is that he would have used his seige equipment to bombard the pass while his engineers cut steps (much as against the Thessalonians) to get to the other side.

[jasonxx]

rjones

Not Really. Alexander didnt particullay force passes he came at the Persian gates un awares and nearly came unstuck. He made no attemp to go at the fron nor cut steps. He needed and bribed a way round the back. Found a Persian Ephialtes as it were.

ThePersians had umpteen thousands pressing Thermopalai. Alexander had no where near the numbers to press home andy assault on such a heavily guarded position

Respect

kenny

[rjones2818]

rjones

Not Really. Alexander didnt particullay force passes he came at the Persian gates un awares and nearly came unstuck. He made no attemp to go at the fron nor cut steps. He needed and bribed a way round the back. Found a Persian Ephialtes as it were.

ThePersians had umpteen thousands pressing Thermopalai. Alexander had no where near the numbers to press home andy assault on such a heavily guarded position

Respect

kenny

Well, if it came down to it, I'm of the opinion that the Macedonian Phalanx would have been able to beat the Spartans straight up. Yes, it'd be bloody, but I'd take the sarissas in that case as opposed to the regular spear.

The other point is that he did pass the Persian Gates, he did turn the pass into Thessaly, he did get through the pass to the north on his way to the Isther/Danube. While there may have been times that he chose not to turn a pass, when he chose to, he did.

And now that I think of it, he may even just have bypassed Thermopylae entirely by going through Beoetia. His smaller force would've been able to do so much better than the Persians could have.

I'm not trying to denigrate Spartan valor at all. They were, overall, the best heavy infantry up until the time of Alexander, with the Sacred Band being great, also. I'm just of the opinon that Alexander would have found a way to force the pass, and I agree that he wouldn't be above using Ephialtes to do it.

[jasonxx]

Respect

I agree on open battle Alexander would have defeated the Sparatns every day of the week. Where he could use his varied forces and tactics against a one dimensional Spartan Phalanx.

However at thermopalae Alexanders Cavalry Tactics and idea would be limited. Alao we must remember there were more than 300 Spartans there were many hundreds maybe thousands. Alexander had too much nounce to try turn that pass Im afraid for me ir would be suicide. At Issus the Macedonain Phalanx were basically met measure for measure by the Greek Mercenaries. Alexanders Cavalry at Thermopalai wouldnt be able to manouver and would smash like waves against rocks. So it would be Phalanx against well seated and positioned Spartans. As you rightly say he would need Ephialtes or already know a way round been Gree.

Do Any Porthonians feel Alexander would be crazy enough to try besiege the pass I dont but I could be wrong.

Kenny

[jasonxx]

Rj.

Alexander did take the Persian Gates but he only took it with a Persian Ephialtes. Were he to continue. He would have got anhialated

kenny

[marcus]

Respect

I agree on open battle Alexander would have defeated the Sparatns every day of the week. Where he could use his varied forces and tactics against a one dimensional Spartan Phalanx.

However at thermopalae Alexanders Cavalry Tactics and idea would be limited. Alao we must remember there were more than 300 Spartans there were many hundreds maybe thousands. Alexander had too much nounce to try turn that pass Im afraid for me ir would be suicide. At Issus the Macedonain Phalanx were basically met measure for measure by the Greek Mercenaries. Alexanders Cavalry at Thermopalai wouldnt be able to manouver and would smash like waves against rocks. So it would be Phalanx against well seated and positioned Spartans. As you rightly say he would need Ephialtes or already know a way round been Gree.

Do Any Porthonians feel Alexander would be crazy enough to try besiege the pass I dont but I could be wrong.

Kenny

I'd say you're right about all of this, Kenny.

At the end of the day, were Alexander in the position of Xerxes, it would have been very bad generalship to attempt to force the pass - not impossible, but so darn-near impossible as to make it the sort of thing that would get a general fragged. At the Persian Gates Alexander tried one frontal assault and then gave up, realising how suicidal it would be to continue - that is good generalship.

Any general worth his salt would seek a way to flank the enemy. It's what Xerxes did, and it's what Alexander did at the Persian Gates. Had Alexander been at Thermopylae, he would have sought his Ephialtes - the difference between him and Xerxes is that he would have gone looking for his Ephialtes earlier than Xerxes did.

ATB

[jasonxx]

Marcus

Indeed. Its particular point with the 300 movies. No matter what they threw at the Spartans it was like water washing against a wall.

Respect
kenny