Language diffusion in Asia

[dean]

Hello there,

Living here in the Canary Islands I come into contact with a wide range of different people from many different races. The Canary Islands are a part of Spain- the national language being obviously Spanish.

I just happened to overhear some Indian people speaking a mix of English and Spanish the other day and it made me think, with no honest intention of offending anyone, that the Brits in India did a better job of difusing their culture and language than Alexander and his matees otherwise Greek would today have had a much greater international presence.This is not to undervalue in any way the importance of the Indians own national language- Hindi which is spoken by an equal number of native speakers today as is the English language- to be compared only to Chinese in numbers.

Being an English teacher myself, I was just curious why English has had such a massive worldwide impact, compared to say, Greek. I mean, why didn't Greek take off in the same way? The Hellenic age lasted several centuries but Greek although an important language, is today only spoken by 15 million people compared to English 380 million.(if the wikipedia entry is correct)

Again, I have no intention with this post of offending anyone, just simply to question why the language barrier didn't seemed to have bridged by the Greeks in Asia.

Best regards,
Dean

[Paralus]

G'day Dean.

Latin became the language of empire and endured mainly due to both the extent and duration of the Roman Empire. Language at a local level was still the native tounge and literacy was at a premium.

By the time of the British Empire, transport and communication were better. Printing was - by its end - commonplace and British commercial concerns (as well as administrative concerns) had ensured the education of locals to serve their interests. Literacy - though by no means comparable to today - was far and away more commonplace than Hellenistic times. Access to the written word was on a scale undreamed of in Alexander's time.

British militarism and, more importantly, commercialism, allied with printing ensured a wider dissemination of the language of empire.

[abm]

Hi Dean and Paralus,

Transport and communication probably did play their part, but we should not loose sight of the time perspective. Alexander's empire was built 2300 years ago, while the British empire is in comparison quite young. After all, Greek was the main language in the east of the Roman Empire until the coming of the Arabs. That's more than 1000 years for Egypt and many centuries more for large parts of Asia Minor under the Byzantine Empire. Even in the west, Greek was the language of the elite (e.g. Caesar's alleged last words in Suetonius, Caesar 82.2: "tradiderunt quidam Marco Bruto irruenti dixisse: καὶ σὺ τέκνον;" ["some have written that when Marcus Brutus rushed at him, he said (in Greek) "You too, my child?"]). It remains to be seen how long English will maintain its importance. Moreover, English also owes its status in part to the economic and political influence of the USA. Thus, I'm not so sure whether the british really did a better job than Alexander in this field, as far as it makes any sense to express it in these terms or even to make the comparison for that matter.

regards,
abm

[Paralus]

After all, Greek was the main language in the east of the Roman Empire until the coming of the Arabs. That's more than 1000 years for Egypt and many centuries more for large parts of Asia Minor under the Byzantine Empire. Even in the west, Greek was the language of the elite... Moreover, English also owes its status in part to the economic and political influence of the USA...

G'day abm.

No argument there. By the time Rome had - finally - decided to take control of the Hellenistic east (including Egypt), life was much simpler when the current forms and procedures were adopted. This included, of course, the title of the "Great King" (or in Rome speak, Emperor). Populations well used to exploitation by "transplanted" Macedonian courts and local elites simply served the new master. Tax concessions were the McDonalds of the day

Koine was - and remained - coin of the realm. Two or more centuries of Hellenistic monarchs and their public servants of Greeks and cultivated locals saw to that. We Christians still mix our wine with water (only in ritual mind) in the time honoured manner of the greek symposium.

Whereas there is no arguing the influence of the US on the prevalence of English in the modern world, it is well to bear in mind that the language - along with French - was widespread and in common use before the US was in any position to influence it. The spread of English owes much to the imperial expansion - territorialy and commercially - of Old Blighty.

And you're correct, there really is no point in the comparison, Alexander and the Hellenistic Greeks did not have recourse to the advantages possessed eighteenth and nineteenth century Britain.

[dean]

Hello,

Yes it is true that to compare the British empire's advantages over those in Hellenistic times is I guess unfair.

I was just surprised that Greek should have not taken off on a massive scale in Asia in everyday language.

As a spin off, I guess that we have to remember also that countless English words have their own Greek etymology so there perhaps is the way Alexander and his gang may have helped to make Greek words reach us today- in Engilsh- 2000 years later.

5% of all English words have Greek origins and 25% are indireclty from Greek- and a5% to me seems very low.

Best regards,
Dean

[dean]

Hello,

Thought I'd just add this note as means of a postcript to this thread regarding language.

I was reading about Memnon's brother Mentor and had a quick look in my faithful Collins to check if the modern day meaning was derived in some way from Mentor- that of a wise counsellor.
I didn't find any mention of Memnon's brother under the word etymology but I did find that the word today is originally derived from Odysseus- putting his household in charge of Mentor before he left for Troy and also leaving the same in charge of Telemachus's education. So there you have the original "Mentor"
You learn something new everyday!!!
Best wishes
Dean

[marcus]

I was reading about Memnon's brother Mentor and had a quick look in my faithful Collins to check if the modern day meaning was derived in some way from Mentor- that of a wise counsellor.
I didn't find any mention of Memnon's brother under the word etymology but I did find that the word today is originally derived from Odysseus- putting his household in charge of Mentor before he left for Troy and also leaving the same in charge of Telemachus's education. So there you have the original "Mentor"

Hi Dean,

Yes, I knew the term came from Telemachus' tutor - I had always assumed that Memnon's brother was named for the same ... it would be interesting to know if there were other 'well known' Mentors (in inverted commas because Memnon's brother is hardly 'well known' himself).

Cheers

[dean]

Hello Marcus,

Just to mention that the word didn't enter the English language until the 18th Century with its modern day connotations as a common noun, although I suppose that anyone who had read the Iliad before that would have known of it as a proper one.

And to be perfectly honest, the two "Mentors" we have mentioned, are the only ones I have ever heard of.
It should be interesting to see if anyone knows of any other "Mentors"
Best regards,
Dean.

[amyntoros]

Hi Dean,

It should be interesting to see if anyone knows of any other "Mentors"

I found no famous Mentors ('cause if they were famous we'd, uh, probably know about them!) but there was a Mentor who accompanied Eumenes to lodge a complaint against Hephaistion. And Memnon's grandfather was apparently named Mentor - so I guess the brother was named after him?

I just love Heckel's WhoGÇÖs Who in the Age of Alexander the Great, from whence came the above info. Interestingly, he makes no mention of Memnon's brother.

Best regards

[marcus]

I just love Heckel's Who's Who in the Age of Alexander the Great, from whence came the above info. Interestingly, he makes no mention of Memnon's brother.

Yes, I recall that I didn't find Mentor in "Who's Who", either - you have just reminded me.

I assume it's because he died before 334BC, and Alexander didn't actually encounter him. A bit surprised, though.

ATB