The Gods are dead, long live the Gods!

[Athanasios]

Companions,Can anybody guide me to any useful reference which covers the period in which pagan gods gave way to Christianity? I am thinking of Egypt in particular...Also, given the Zoroastrians of Persia were the first to practice mono-atheism, did their conquer of Egypt have ANY influence on their God worshipping? How much did they push for this and how much hostility was created?Thanks in advance.Regards,
Atha

[amyntoros]

In answer to the first part of your question:Jonathan Kirsch - God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism.Robin Lane Fox - Pagans and Christians: Religion and Religious Life from the Second to the Fourth Century A.D. When the Gods of Olympus Lost their Dominion and Christianty, with the Conversion of Constantine, Triumphed in the Mediterranean World.The only references to Egypt concern the city of Alexandria which played a fairly important role in the conversion. Btw, Fox's book ends with Constantine (obviously, given the title) while Kirsch continues through the reign of Julian.Best regards,Amyntoros

[amyntoros]

In answer to the first part of your question:Jonathan Kirsch - God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism.Robin Lane Fox - Pagans and Christians: Religion and Religious Life from the Second to the Fourth Century A.D. When the Gods of Olympus Lost their Dominion and Christianty, with the Conversion of Constantine, Triumphed in the Mediterranean World.The only references to Egypt concern the city of Alexandria which played a fairly important role in the conversion. Btw, Fox's book ends with Constantine (obviously, given the title) while Kirsch continues through the reign of Julian.Best regards,Amyntoros

[jan]

Hi Athas,One interesting section of the book by Nicholas Nicastro is a small piece of information about the religious beliefs of the Zororaster faith. It sounds very much like the Jewish faith in many ways, and the author, Nicholas Nicastro, knows a lot about this subject. I know nothing about Nicholas except what the jacket blurb gives which may mean that he is associated with Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, where he lives with his wife and daughter.A statement on the jacket is a clue to me that this book has on its cover a statement that was made about me when I was taking court reporting in Tampa Bay in the late 70's as Marvin Morganstern credited me for having " a great command of the language". I noticed that phrase on this cover, and I thought to myself, well, at least, I know this connection!

[jan]

Hi Athas,One interesting section of the book by Nicholas Nicastro is a small piece of information about the religious beliefs of the Zororaster faith. It sounds very much like the Jewish faith in many ways, and the author, Nicholas Nicastro, knows a lot about this subject. I know nothing about Nicholas except what the jacket blurb gives which may mean that he is associated with Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, where he lives with his wife and daughter.A statement on the jacket is a clue to me that this book has on its cover a statement that was made about me when I was taking court reporting in Tampa Bay in the late 70's as Marvin Morganstern credited me for having " a great command of the language". I noticed that phrase on this cover, and I thought to myself, well, at least, I know this connection!

[Nicator]

I found Carl Sagan's book "Cosmos" to be a useful guide on this subject. He did a good job of setting up the intellectual environment of the pre-Socratian philosophers and brings you elegantly down to the dark ages. A subject of which the demise of Greek culture and the rise of monotheistic religion is itself central to. In addition to this would be Grant's "From Alexander to Cleaopatra". He does a fair job of connecting the dots from Alexander's conquests through the downfall of high Hellene culture to the end of the Greek empires. It's a complicated issue that deserves far more attention than it has heretofore received. I delivered a speech on this subject years ago to a social science class for extra credit. The greeks had their day, and for more than a thousand years they reigned supreme. But it was their philosophy (and the all pervasive heuristic culture) that in the end got the better of them. Why would you need a god to describe things when you could figure it out on your own, or read what someone else figured out. Alexander's conquests both spread the influence and hastened the demise of the Greek gods. His empire opened up the world to the Greek gods of the pantheon, but also opened up Greece to the religions of Asia. Thus, in some fashion, corrupting the great Hellene religios icons. Alexander (unintentionally) further weakened the base of Greek religion by declaring himself to be a god. Thus setting the example for countless successor kings to also claim descendancy from the gods. In Alexander's lifetime, only the few elite intellectuals could fathom the notion that this was a man that decreed godship upon himself. Within a few centuries of his death, it was common knowledge that few didn't take for granted. Of course, I'm only touching on some vague generalities here, the issue goes much deeper. The constant state of warfare that existed throughout the Hellenistic age gave the common man a constant reminder of the harsh realities of life, and brought home the harsh notion that no god would help them. If they wanted to survive, if they wanted their city state or polis to survive, they'd have to do it on their own. The poverty of the Greek mainland during the end of the Hellenistic era, and the imposition of Roman rule further hastened the end. It's really a bit of a tragedy, I for one, admire the Greek Gods. I can't help but find them far more interesting. I guess Polytheism is a more difficult program to maint

[Nicator]

I found Carl Sagan's book "Cosmos" to be a useful guide on this subject. He did a good job of setting up the intellectual environment of the pre-Socratian philosophers and brings you elegantly down to the dark ages. A subject of which the demise of Greek culture and the rise of monotheistic religion is itself central to. In addition to this would be Grant's "From Alexander to Cleaopatra". He does a fair job of connecting the dots from Alexander's conquests through the downfall of high Hellene culture to the end of the Greek empires. It's a complicated issue that deserves far more attention than it has heretofore received. I delivered a speech on this subject years ago to a social science class for extra credit. The greeks had their day, and for more than a thousand years they reigned supreme. But it was their philosophy (and the all pervasive heuristic culture) that in the end got the better of them. Why would you need a god to describe things when you could figure it out on your own, or read what someone else figured out. Alexander's conquests both spread the influence and hastened the demise of the Greek gods. His empire opened up the world to the Greek gods of the pantheon, but also opened up Greece to the religions of Asia. Thus, in some fashion, corrupting the great Hellene religios icons. Alexander (unintentionally) further weakened the base of Greek religion by declaring himself to be a god. Thus setting the example for countless successor kings to also claim descendancy from the gods. In Alexander's lifetime, only the few elite intellectuals could fathom the notion that this was a man that decreed godship upon himself. Within a few centuries of his death, it was common knowledge that few didn't take for granted. Of course, I'm only touching on some vague generalities here, the issue goes much deeper. The constant state of warfare that existed throughout the Hellenistic age gave the common man a constant reminder of the harsh realities of life, and brought home the harsh notion that no god would help them. If they wanted to survive, if they wanted their city state or polis to survive, they'd have to do it on their own. The poverty of the Greek mainland during the end of the Hellenistic era, and the imposition of Roman rule further hastened the end. It's really a bit of a tragedy, I for one, admire the Greek Gods. I can't help but find them far more interesting. I guess Polytheism is a more difficult program to maint

[Nicator]

cont'd...I guess Polytheism is a more difficult program to maintain though, as the common man would have to stay consistantly abreast of all the gods, instead of just one. So in a lot of ways, I see monotheism as a dumbing down of religion. Suitable for the common man, and more likely to survive the tests of time. Particularly when societies go through their down cycle. Looking at Greece today, I found a culture unable to meet the technological expectations of a future that was in many ways born in her past. Greece today, seems fully consumed by the suffocating tendrils of Christianity. The connections to her brilliant ancient past forever broken. Wouldn't it be cool to re-awaken Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Poseidon, and Dionysius! But, alas, this is a case of been there, done that, didn't work then, and won't work now. Of course, we could say the same for Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. later Nicator

[Nicator]

cont'd...I guess Polytheism is a more difficult program to maintain though, as the common man would have to stay consistantly abreast of all the gods, instead of just one. So in a lot of ways, I see monotheism as a dumbing down of religion. Suitable for the common man, and more likely to survive the tests of time. Particularly when societies go through their down cycle. Looking at Greece today, I found a culture unable to meet the technological expectations of a future that was in many ways born in her past. Greece today, seems fully consumed by the suffocating tendrils of Christianity. The connections to her brilliant ancient past forever broken. Wouldn't it be cool to re-awaken Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Poseidon, and Dionysius! But, alas, this is a case of been there, done that, didn't work then, and won't work now. Of course, we could say the same for Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. later Nicator

[Taphoi]

Alexandria in Late Antiquity by Christopher Haas.Best wishes,Andrew

[Taphoi]

Alexandria in Late Antiquity by Christopher Haas.Best wishes,Andrew

[Efstathios]

Nick, i liked your reply, but there are some points that we must look into. One of the causes that greece is how it is today is because of the 400 years of slavery.Surely the byzantine empire had decayed at some point,but we have also to thank western europe for that and the first crusades who pillaged Constantinopole and a part of the empire.If these things hadnt happen and if the ottoman turks hadnt been able to capture the byzantine empire things may had been very different. The empire would probably change form into something else, another empire,but still greek.And then all the knowledge would continue to flourish.Because dont forget that many important things happened during the byzantine empire concerning many sciences and there were many bright people who contributed to astronomy,engineering,mathematics,literature e.t.c.Its not a coinsidence that after the empire fell all this knowledge was transfered to western europe by people that escaped and migrated to the west. And all these things happened without the orthodox church stopping them.At least not in all cases.While the western catholic church was a big burden to the scientists (holy Inquisition).The difficult times where when Theodosios destroyed the ancient temples and hunted down the pagans.But after some years things got better.Sciences started to flourish again.Not without obstacles, but i think that if all this wasnt stopped by the ottoman invasion all the great discoveries might have happened earlier. Just a thought.

[Efstathios]

Nick, i liked your reply, but there are some points that we must look into. One of the causes that greece is how it is today is because of the 400 years of slavery.Surely the byzantine empire had decayed at some point,but we have also to thank western europe for that and the first crusades who pillaged Constantinopole and a part of the empire.If these things hadnt happen and if the ottoman turks hadnt been able to capture the byzantine empire things may had been very different. The empire would probably change form into something else, another empire,but still greek.And then all the knowledge would continue to flourish.Because dont forget that many important things happened during the byzantine empire concerning many sciences and there were many bright people who contributed to astronomy,engineering,mathematics,literature e.t.c.Its not a coinsidence that after the empire fell all this knowledge was transfered to western europe by people that escaped and migrated to the west. And all these things happened without the orthodox church stopping them.At least not in all cases.While the western catholic church was a big burden to the scientists (holy Inquisition).The difficult times where when Theodosios destroyed the ancient temples and hunted down the pagans.But after some years things got better.Sciences started to flourish again.Not without obstacles, but i think that if all this wasnt stopped by the ottoman invasion all the great discoveries might have happened earlier. Just a thought.

[Athanasios]

Thanks Companions,A useful list of references for me to explore.Once again thanks.Regards,
Atha

[Athanasios]

Thanks Companions,A useful list of references for me to explore.Once again thanks.Regards,
Atha