I Dispute The Arrows Blocked out the Sun

[kenny]

Following Histories and reading of Battles.I really Gotta take Issue with Arrian The Persiam Archers were so dense the Blocked out the sun. In fact I argue any archery Involvement at all.I totaly Believe Consontration of any type of Consolidary arrow power would have made Life impossible for Alexander.Xerxes in his wisdom Centuries earlier learned a lesson and finished the Spartans from range with arrows for He knew it Expensive and he couldnt mix it with the Hoplites.If indeed as is said the Persians consontrated Archer at Alexander his cavalry in my opinion would have been cut to pieces. We cant assume thgat the bow came into its own at Agincourt.Cavalry Just cant charge head on into a hail of Arrows it is Total Charge of the light Brigade.Even the Phalanx only carried small round shields. Only the Roman Formation of The tortoise in my opinion is effective against consontrated Archer Volleys.I really have to dispute any large numbers of Archers as mentioned. In my opinion Alexanders small army would have been cut to pieces.Kenny

[kenny]

To Strengthem my argument. You only have to watch the Stone movie. " volleys off arrows dropped many Macedonians.Really they wouldnt take it.Couldnt take it?Kenny

[kenny]

To Strengthem my argument. You only have to watch the Stone movie. " volleys off arrows dropped many Macedonians.Really they wouldnt take it.Couldnt take it?Kenny

[Efstathios]

Kenny i disagree.It's all about tactics.ALexander knew that he would be facing archers so he must have put his cavalry in a position that could be reache by archers.Dont forget that after firing one shot the archers needed some time to reload,aim and fire again. That time must have been decisive.If the cavalry charged after the first throw of arrows then until the archers could throw again they would be very close.And the archers of course didnt sit there to be slaughtered.So it must have been like one shot, one chance for the archers.After that its retreat.And it seems that they didnt find their targets maybe because Alexander had them hidden behind the Phallanx or for some other reason,i dont know. I dont think Arrian was lying when he talked about so many arrows in the air.You said it yourself,Darius surely must have known that in order to win against greeks he needed many archers too. I think it went that way: The archers threw the arrows and some of them found their targets in the Phallanx (The shileds althougb small must have minimized casualties).But then the cavalry charged ,and when the archers saw the cavalry maybe they knew they would not have enough time for another shot and retreated.And i think it's the most probable tactic that Alexander could have followed.I dont think there was another way to face archers in an open battlefield.You throw cavalry very quickly at them.

[Efstathios]

Kenny i disagree.It's all about tactics.ALexander knew that he would be facing archers so he must have put his cavalry in a position that could be reache by archers.Dont forget that after firing one shot the archers needed some time to reload,aim and fire again. That time must have been decisive.If the cavalry charged after the first throw of arrows then until the archers could throw again they would be very close.And the archers of course didnt sit there to be slaughtered.So it must have been like one shot, one chance for the archers.After that its retreat.And it seems that they didnt find their targets maybe because Alexander had them hidden behind the Phallanx or for some other reason,i dont know. I dont think Arrian was lying when he talked about so many arrows in the air.You said it yourself,Darius surely must have known that in order to win against greeks he needed many archers too. I think it went that way: The archers threw the arrows and some of them found their targets in the Phallanx (The shileds althougb small must have minimized casualties).But then the cavalry charged ,and when the archers saw the cavalry maybe they knew they would not have enough time for another shot and retreated.And i think it's the most probable tactic that Alexander could have followed.I dont think there was another way to face archers in an open battlefield.You throw cavalry very quickly at them.

[kenny]

eftsSorry mate I gotta disagree. One shot not time to reload and go. During that time there were very able Archers from Parthia who were devastaing Archers in particular shooting from Horse Back causing in military terms the Parthian shot.I am more than sure if Darius had specific archers they would be trained enough to loose off volley after Volley. The English Longbow archers could loose off arount 8 to 10 arrows in about a minute. Very compound agressive and dense.Were Darius to have even a thousand archers who were to loose off even 3 or 4 just imagine the devastationreaped upon Alexanders 1000 plus cavarly.Nomerically and statisticall Alexanders charge could not take it. Indeed if the Persians looses off one volley then scarpered maybe. But not if they fnctioned correctly. I believe The Archers a fabrication from Arian just to beef up the story as with The So called Elephants that were supposed to be at Gaugamella. I feel a lot of it just decoration.Masses Of Cavalry Thousands of Infantry and a few hundred Chariots to roll over the Macedonians. On mass Archers would have in my opinion held Alexander in his trachs. Archers is the only way I would try stop him. Get to close to him andhis army and hell take your throat out.The Greeks hated and thought little of archers they thought it the cowards way to fight. But in practicallity its very cheap and most efective.Cannons and Cavalry the outcome the same. There was once a programe in the uk demonstrating the punch power of a bow.The demonstrtation had about 20 archers loose off about 6 arrows a minute. The ground in front of them was absolutely peppered with arrows.Regards And Respect.Kenny

[kenny]

eftsSorry mate I gotta disagree. One shot not time to reload and go. During that time there were very able Archers from Parthia who were devastaing Archers in particular shooting from Horse Back causing in military terms the Parthian shot.I am more than sure if Darius had specific archers they would be trained enough to loose off volley after Volley. The English Longbow archers could loose off arount 8 to 10 arrows in about a minute. Very compound agressive and dense.Were Darius to have even a thousand archers who were to loose off even 3 or 4 just imagine the devastationreaped upon Alexanders 1000 plus cavarly.Nomerically and statisticall Alexanders charge could not take it. Indeed if the Persians looses off one volley then scarpered maybe. But not if they fnctioned correctly. I believe The Archers a fabrication from Arian just to beef up the story as with The So called Elephants that were supposed to be at Gaugamella. I feel a lot of it just decoration.Masses Of Cavalry Thousands of Infantry and a few hundred Chariots to roll over the Macedonians. On mass Archers would have in my opinion held Alexander in his trachs. Archers is the only way I would try stop him. Get to close to him andhis army and hell take your throat out.The Greeks hated and thought little of archers they thought it the cowards way to fight. But in practicallity its very cheap and most efective.Cannons and Cavalry the outcome the same. There was once a programe in the uk demonstrating the punch power of a bow.The demonstrtation had about 20 archers loose off about 6 arrows a minute. The ground in front of them was absolutely peppered with arrows.Regards And Respect.Kenny

[Efstathios]

Yes maybe there werent archers,or many archers in gaugamela.But why did Darius leave the archers off this battle?I mean the persians were known to be excellent archers.It was one of their primary ways of fighting.So why would he not include them?

[Efstathios]

Yes maybe there werent archers,or many archers in gaugamela.But why did Darius leave the archers off this battle?I mean the persians were known to be excellent archers.It was one of their primary ways of fighting.So why would he not include them?

[ruthaki1]

If you are referring to the Spartans at Thermopolyae when the Persian arrows blotted out the sun, you need to realize it was a narrow beach front and also a very narrow passage into the Hot Gates. And there were thousands upon thousands of Persians compared to a very small number of Spartans and allies.As far as Alexander is concerned, I agree that he had studied (and read about) the Persian archers and knew enough how to avoid them. Besides, the phalanx was set up in such a way their shields protected them when raised overhead and closed together like a turtle's shell.

[ruthaki1]

If you are referring to the Spartans at Thermopolyae when the Persian arrows blotted out the sun, you need to realize it was a narrow beach front and also a very narrow passage into the Hot Gates. And there were thousands upon thousands of Persians compared to a very small number of Spartans and allies.As far as Alexander is concerned, I agree that he had studied (and read about) the Persian archers and knew enough how to avoid them. Besides, the phalanx was set up in such a way their shields protected them when raised overhead and closed together like a turtle's shell.

[Athanasios]

Kenny,I know where you are coming from. I mean, the armies that emerged from Central Asia were not only excellent archers, but in a league of their own when it came to cavalry. The combination, when exercised, should have been lethal.For Alexander not to have suffered a loss, or at least greater losses, would indicate that the archers and especially horse-back archers were not utilised to their full potential.I do accept the argument made that they would have been forced into battle, which would make a massive difference...Perhaps this weakness, stemming form the fact that the extremities of the Persian Empire were only loosely controlled and not fully summoned to battle, were ruthlessly exploited by Alexander, along with his ability to use topography and geography to his advantage.Regards,
Atha

[Athanasios]

Kenny,I know where you are coming from. I mean, the armies that emerged from Central Asia were not only excellent archers, but in a league of their own when it came to cavalry. The combination, when exercised, should have been lethal.For Alexander not to have suffered a loss, or at least greater losses, would indicate that the archers and especially horse-back archers were not utilised to their full potential.I do accept the argument made that they would have been forced into battle, which would make a massive difference...Perhaps this weakness, stemming form the fact that the extremities of the Persian Empire were only loosely controlled and not fully summoned to battle, were ruthlessly exploited by Alexander, along with his ability to use topography and geography to his advantage.Regards,
Atha

[kenny]

athaN HailFor whatever reason. Darius supreme confidence even. A little honourism among armies. But I dont think they were there in the numbers that Blotted out the Sun. I call it as sith Stone Artistic Licence.
No matter how a genius and tactically prepaire Alexander indeed was for these Battles no ammount of tactics can account for been pepperedwqith Arrows.During the sommer just for a hobby I made a traditional 6 foot long bow with about 40lb pull. O loosed off arrows and the flew for well over a hundred yards. During Aguncourt the bows were like trunks in excess of 100 pound pull and launched heavy half inch arrows over 500 yards.The eastern compound bows were even more powerful. For a wedge of the Companion charge the initial volley even if it was only one volley would pin cuscion Alexander and his poor hours.The only time Alexander was ever at risk was one Malian stary arrow. It dropped him like a sledge hammer. Imaging him at the recieving edge of a volley. In my opinion Alexander would have been killed. Or looking like a tea bag.Kenny

[kenny]

athaN HailFor whatever reason. Darius supreme confidence even. A little honourism among armies. But I dont think they were there in the numbers that Blotted out the Sun. I call it as sith Stone Artistic Licence.
No matter how a genius and tactically prepaire Alexander indeed was for these Battles no ammount of tactics can account for been pepperedwqith Arrows.During the sommer just for a hobby I made a traditional 6 foot long bow with about 40lb pull. O loosed off arrows and the flew for well over a hundred yards. During Aguncourt the bows were like trunks in excess of 100 pound pull and launched heavy half inch arrows over 500 yards.The eastern compound bows were even more powerful. For a wedge of the Companion charge the initial volley even if it was only one volley would pin cuscion Alexander and his poor hours.The only time Alexander was ever at risk was one Malian stary arrow. It dropped him like a sledge hammer. Imaging him at the recieving edge of a volley. In my opinion Alexander would have been killed. Or looking like a tea bag.Kenny