Was ALexander Really Influenced By Achilles

[kenny]

Companions HailExcuse my Ignoreance with the Illiad but I always wondered just how much Alexander was influenced by Achilles,,, Is there any known history prior to Troy.I may be crude but my info is Achilles turned up with Agamemnonfell out with Agamemnon and sulked for sometime, Patriclus get killed by Hector then Achilles does for Hector, Then Paris takes him out with a bow and arrow from the ramparts.I know it said Achilles swapped a long eventful life for one so short with glory. But is Achilles glory only that he won a fixed fight against the Trojan champion,, I say fixed as Achilles was dipped in the Stix and was therefore invincible.Ill forevere remember the lines From Brad Pitt to Agamemnon.'it would be a sihght to see a king fight his own battles?' Very prequal to the Alexander story I would have said and hoped.Excuse my ignorance with the Illiad.Kenny

[marcus]

Hi Kenny,This question has prompted quite a bit of argument on Pothos in the past, but there is no doubt that he was influenced by Achilles.One of the irritating things about Greek myth is the fact that you have to build up the full story from so many sources. The Iliad, for example, doesn't deal with Achilles' death. However, it does give a clear indication of his status as the greatest warrior on the Achaean side - we hear of his successful raiding up and down the seaboard during the previous years of the war. One of the interesting things about the Iliad is that most of the characters are actually quite unlikeable. To our modern sensibilities Achilles' sulking in his tent is really quite unforgivable, and the deaths that result from his sulk are many. But to the ancient sensibilities a great hero like Achilles was permitted to have great sulks, and his anger was just ... and it made a heck of a good story!All the bestMarcus

[kenny]

Marcu HailThnanks for youir feedback,, In retrospect I cant see anything heroic about Ahcilles. Due the the fact he was supposededly dipped imn the River Stix by his mother making him invincible.It therefore goies without saying he was always playing a stacked deck in layterms I wpould say he was a cheat.This may roch the basis and legend of Achiiles but in reallity the guy was no hero as he was invincible.The guy was going into battle more sure than Alexander at Gaugamella there was the strong possibility Alexander would die,, He had skin and flesh that was many times pearced by sharp objescts.
In reallity If Alexander was idolising Achiles then he was idolising a man far removed from the heroes and enemies Porus. Alexander praised and admired courage many times rewarding them.Achilles was not brave as he had no threat only the minor chance a poison arrow hit him in the heel.The arrow must have been poisoned as I would argue an arrow through the heel wouldnt kill anyone.Kenny

[justme]

The heel is the only place Achilles was vulnerable. His mother held him by the heel to dip him in the river.But remember that Achilles invincibility had to be explained and that type of thing was most often explained away as due to some God-like circumstance. His mother was a diety as well. These things are usually attributed after death (Achilles wouldn't have gone around knowing his own mythology) explaining his prowess and mortal demise the only way they could - he was immortal, except for his heel. Since he always had that small vulnerability, there was always a chance he could be killed, so he was still the hero and no cheat. Not to mention that he didn't tell his mother to dip him in the Styx, it was something he had to live with. The Styx story isn't always believed either. His mother hid him from war (among women), so she knew he was vulnerable. If he was totally invincibile she wouldn't have worried.The main things about Achilles are his fighting prowess (the fighting at Troy lasted ten years - not the seemingly days of the movie) and his loyalty to his friends (foremost, Patroclus). Those are the things to admire through the extras of the myth.Hope that makes more sense, Kenny, I hope you get the chance sometime to read The Illiad.

[dean]

Hello,I think that Alexander was definetly influenced by the figure of Achilles. As mentioned Homer's book is a classic and Alexander was regretful that there was no Homer around to talk of his exploits. He had Callisthenes(no comment)Even the line by Alexander that it is noble to live with valor and die leaving a ..... blah blah blah is faintly reminiscent of the warrior's code found in the Iliad.Take care,
Dean.

[marcus]

Hi Lois,ItGÇÖs a very difficult thing to encapsulate in relatively short posts, and IGÇÖm going to try to cover points in both KennyGÇÖs and your posts here. I can see what KennyGÇÖs getting at, although I think that it would be churlish *not* to call Achilles a hero. ItGÇÖs a bit like getting into a discussion about whether Superman is a hero because of his powers (interesting psychological point, though, because I was never that keen on Superman for that very reason GÇô Batman was always my favourite because he was completely mortal).Actually, although I can see what youGÇÖre saying, Lois, I donGÇÖt think it matters a jot whether Achilles GÇÿknew his own mythologyGÇÖ. Ultimately, youGÇÖre right GÇô everyone knew the danger, even if his heel was his only vulnerable point GǪ and in fact Achilles *knew* he was going to die at Troy GÇô yet he still went, because of the glory it would bring him, and which he desired more than a long life. Depending on the versions of the stories one believes, the nature of his heel was well-known, and Paris deliberately shot him there because he knew it was the only spot worth hitting. Of course, it begs the question of why he didnGÇÖt armour that part up GǪ but thatGÇÖs why the discussion could go round and round in circles for days.As it happens, in the context of myth, the arrow that killed him didnGÇÖt necessarily have to be poisoned. I donGÇÖt think it would be a unique device that the one vulnerable spot on his body was, as a result, super-vulnerable, and so a normal wound there could kill him. At the end of the day, while myths and legends often have their own logic, it doesnGÇÖt do to question some things too closely (a bit like modern-day Sci-Fi/fantasy worlds).I know I havenGÇÖt answered all the points made GǪ but IGÇÖm supposed to be working!

[kenny]

Lois Marcus HailAll points valid,, More so with Superman and batman I think the idea of there heroisn, Is that they stood for good against Evil used his powers to aid the vulnerable or weak. Batman as you say a benuine here fallable and able to get hurt wounded and killed.I think these type of hero are partr of American phsyche I dont insult Americans,,, But I dont see any American heroes to protect and fight its all unreall and hollywood, John Wayne, Batman even Spiderman. So were are seperating heroes, Achiles was not a hero in this mode it was all for himself and his own reputaion.I think the story of Troy is fuzzy anyway as a child we thought Paris stole Helen and the Greeks went to war in the name of honour and the face that launched a thoiusand ships. The reallity of it is much sadder and a reflection of society now and since.The real reasom was greed power and wealth, sad but true and in all reality we would call the Trojans the heroes they fought for survival and defence of there homeland,, Its strange when we grow older we sometimes see things the way they are.So Lois your cool with Achiles been a hero but to me hi still carried a stacked deck,, You state that Achiles were not aware of the vculnerable spot on his heel,,, As Marcus said it must have been known as Paris knew just where to hit.There is nothing at all brace or heroic with Achiles he went against Hector a mortal man knowing that he himself was imprengable,,, And yet through the ages and cheating with a noble Hector a champion that fought for freedom and his home. Achiles gets painted in glory.As with hjeroes did anyone think Ben Johnson the Canadian sprinter a hero once we all knew he ceated.Im sorry folks but am I the first to call Achiles a cheat. Alexander was more worthy than to be compared to Achiles I think not.
Kenny

[amyntoros]

Mmm, unless my memory has completely failed me, this business of Achilles being dipped by his mother in the river Styx isn't in the Iliad. Therefore, Achilles was not invulnerable in Homer's story and was indeed risking his life in battle, making him a true hero in the warrior tradition. (I think the first literary references to the Achilles' heel are Roman.) As it was Homer that Alexander carried around with him, he would have had every reason to admire Achilles. Whether he actually emulated him is, as has been discussed here, a whole other story.Best regards,Linda Ann

[Kit]

Hi Kenny,There is no reason to believe that Alexander didn't find Achilles worthy of admiration. He claimed descent from Achilles line (mythical though that may be to us the ancient Greeks would have taken it seriously) through his mothers side.It is ironic that although Achilles was considered the greatest of Greek heroes due to his quest for personal glory (which probably harks back to the dark ages of Greece when warriors fought as individuals, much like 'Homer's Champions), Hector actually displays all the qualities that the Greeks of the Polis in the Classical Age most admired. Self sacrifice for the greater good, love of country, desire to live free etc.Achilles always desired to be 'the best' and Alexander shared that desire. The sources certainly seem to indicate that Alexander was in some kind of personal competition with Achilles, Herakles, and even Dionysus!regards,Kit.

[Kit]

P.S- If i remember the myths correctly I think that one of the Gods who sided with the Trojans was supposed to have informed Paris that Achilles was vulnerable in his heel !?Sorry, I can't remember which one off hand (probably Apollo!).Kit

[justme]

Linda - you are so right. The Illiad doesn't cover the whole of the Trojan war, not even the Trojan Horse. Achilles is not killed then (Ajax dicing over his armor is in The Odyssey).I think the point of Homer is that Achilles was this great, invincible warrier. He was very human, showing hubris and pouting over his friend's death. He destroyed Hector as well as desecrating Hector's body. However, Zeus and Thetis intervened and spoke with him so that when Priam begged for his son's body, Achilles was able to see his error and be compassionate, becoming the true hero.So, we shouldn't let the movie confuse us. What's seen in that isn't what Alexander would have believed about the hero in reading The Illiad. I do agree with Marcus as well, that working through the myth is like working through SciFi/Fantasy. Take the legends of Arthur. Historians believed he would have lived about 500 CE. His legend was handed down by oral tradition until the 1100's when it was written down - conforming with the customs and morals of the time. Therefore, he became the height of chivalry as a Christian King and wore full armor instead of the chainmail and leather Arthur who consorted with Druids most likely wore.Back to Troy, there is a theory that Homer made up the battle of Troy - that it is an amalgam of over 100 years worth of war packed into 10. Achilles may have been a great hero in the real war, but the myths about him may have started with Homer and later being expanded by the Romans (including being half-diety). Kenny, it was very common in Greek mythology to have Gods interact with humans. They helped all over the place throughout the Illiad. If Achilles cheated, so did everyone else. His invulnerability isn't an issue when the others have help as well. You can think that Achilles was a "cheat" but only after you read the Illiad and understand how much the Gods helped throughout the whole war.

[justme]

Just did a little more digging:Homer said that Achilles had a weak point - his pride (hubris). Ovid in his "Metamorphoses" said the weak point was actually in Achilles body.Statius, a Roman writing almost 400 years after Alexander's death, was the first to imply Achilles weak point was his heel.Therefore, the whole heel incident has nothing to do with the Achilles that Alexander admired.

[beausefaless]

Greetings Lois,
My favorite characters were Apollo and Cassandra; Apollo was madly in love with Cassandra, unfortunately for the Trojans Cassandra did not feel the same way about Apollo. So Apollo offered Cassandra the foresight to see the future for one night of love, Cassandra agreed. But all that did was fuel Apollo's love even more, when Apollo wanted more love from Cassandra she said no way. This really pissed off Apollo then Apollo cursed Cassandra by making everyone not to believe a word (prophecy) that came out her big mouth!
I feel Alexander looked upon Achilles as young American kids idolized Sgt. York and Audi Murphy. Alexander gave much more thought to Herakles and Dionysus than he ever did to Achilles.
Regards, Andrew

[kenny]

LOIS Andrew hail.Lois I woyld definately agree with your reasoning thatb the Trojan war was besed on an amalgulation of wars and conflict it suites and makes more sence I really couldnt see any force siegi g a city for 10 years.The Greeks had only to surround the city off and cut it off from suplies of food etc,,, We can realistically expect a city like Tyre to hold Alexander up for months and an earlier guy indefinately as it could be supplied by sea.Andrew hail Audy Murphy the mostr decorated American soldier in ww11 akin to Achilles, just how much of this guy portrayed in the films was true, or the usual make believe.Dionisus moderately I dont think he was that much of piss head, And every where Alexander went was in coimplete rivalry with Heracles, The sogdian Rock further east than Heracles.Anyway I still rechon Achilles fought with a stacked deck.Kenny

[kenny]

LOIS Andrew hail.Lois I woyld definately agree with your reasoning thatb the Trojan war was besed on an amalgulation of wars and conflict it suites and makes more sence I really couldnt see any force siegi g a city for 10 years.The Greeks had only to surround the city off and cut it off from suplies of food etc,,, We can realistically expect a city like Tyre to hold Alexander up for months and an earlier guy indefinately as it could be supplied by sea.Andrew hail Audy Murphy the mostr decorated American soldier in ww11 akin to Achilles, just how much of this guy portrayed in the films was true, or the usual make believe.Dionisus moderately I dont think he was that much of piss head, And every where Alexander went was in coimplete rivalry with Heracles, The sogdian Rock further east than Heracles.Anyway I still rechon Achilles fought with a stacked deck.Kenny