Alexander finally taking part in Olympic celebrations. Greek

[stavros]

im proud to be Greek!! however they should have had him marching with 2000 infantry behind him in the opening ceremony. he was and will remain a greek legend.stavros

[jona]

The following message may sound sarcastic, but is not. I am trying to understand two things that continue to surprise me.(1) The Greek-Macedonian debate is, in my view, incredibly strange. Let me make a comparison. Once, there was a Belgian king named Ariovistus, who led a revolt against the Romans. Modern Belgians have erected a statue to him, and he is now part of the Belgian collective memory. However, there are several clues that Ariovistus's territories were in fact in the southern part of the Dutch province of Limburg. I can not imagine that modern Dutchmen and modern Belgians will quarrel about it. After all, it's 2,000 years ago.Now I do understand that several countries in southeastern Europe have certain serious disputes. And debates sometimes become a bit more angry than people want. I guess most Greeks and Macedonians will now agree that the Greeks demanding the sole right of the name Macedonia were exaggerating a bit, and I think that most Macedonians (or Skopians, or FYROM-ers) will agree that it was not very clever to suggest that they wanted Thessaloniki. But these are modern debates. WHY INVOLVE ALEXANDER?The only result is an incredibly boring and dull exchange of invectives about a dead man. But the Greek-Macedonian dispute is a modern debate. It's about the control of the port of Thessaloniki, it's about borders; the past has nothing to with it. If the Belgians and Dutch have a dispute, e.g. about access to the port of Antwerp, they simply discuss that. No one will pick up Ariovistus again. So, what makes Alexander so relevant?(2) It looks as if Macedonians and Greeks actually WANT to have Alexander among their sons. Why? Compare the Germans: they always say that Hitler was from Austria. Compare the Russians: they always say that Stalin was from Georgia.Why do the Greeks and Macedonians claim a mass murderer as one of theirs? This was indeed a man who would, as Stavros correctly says, come to an innocent sport match, "marching with 2000 infantry behind him in the opening ceremony". Polyaenus 4.3.24 (although about a law suit, not about sport) is the exact parallel.Until the Olympics started, I was really happy that they were in Greece. I have always said, and will always say, that there should be permanent sport accomodations in Greece. Like ancient Elis, modern Greece is a small and more or less neutral country, which minimizes the possibility of politics interfering with the beauty of sport. I was happy that th

[jona]

I was happy that the Greek sport authorities were not impressed by a doping incident involving Greeks (unlike the U.S. sport authorities at Salt Lake City, which protected American junkies). I was hoping for a nice opening ceremony, showing the beauties of Greece, perhaps even some poetry by Seferis or Gatsos or Ritsos.Instead, we got Alexander. My friends immediately switched off the TV, making comparisons with Olympic Games in Berlin with a show involving Hitler. As always, Greece has been able to insult its friends.Belive me, I am not sarcastic. I love Greece, but this is one aspect of modern Greece that I find deeply, deeply shocking.So, please explain it. I am Dutch and I know that the Dutch have some customs that are foreigners think is shocking, like "Zwarte Piet". Among ourselves, we think it is not shocking at all, but when we organize a sporting contest, we don't present a Zwarte Piet, because we don't want to insult our guests.To sum up: please explain- Why do Greeks and Macedonians think that Alexander
is relevant to a modern political debate?
- Why do they think he is so relevant, that they run
the risk of insulting friends?I am asking this because I love Greece and Macedonia.Jona

[yiannis]

Jona, I don't know if I have all the answers but I'll try to give you an idea of the issue, of course from my point of view.The Balkan always have been a melting pot of people an civilizations. Wars in this region are a common issue. Now, if Macedonians were not Greeks but a different nationality and their descentants are today's Slavomacedonians then they're a distinct nacionality and not e.g. Bulgarians so they can have their own state. Of course no-one disputes that they can have their own state, what ever they are, but some of them continue to talk about "liberation of Aegean Macedonia" and of the Macedonian minorities in Greece/Bulgaria/Albania thus greatly infuriating their neigbors.If, on the other hand, the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe, then the modern day Slavomacedonians are Bulgarians (as Ottoman statistics indicate) so why need a separate state?
You get the drift? :-)Anyway, all this is really stupid. Alexander being Greek (as I believe) or a different tribe is in the end irrelevant. If he was not Greek to begin with, then he "became" Greek on his own free will, which is even more important and he spread Greek culture and language to the ends of the world!

[maximus]

HelloI have always considered Alexander to be Macedonian, and specifically NOT greek. You say that Alexander wanted to be a greek. With this i agree. However firstly you have to remember that Alexander and his father bout FOUHGT against the greeks and Alexander commited a so called"atrocity" on the Theban people. Anyway even if Alexander the Great wanted to be Greek does not mean that he is. If an Englishman wants to be french that means he is not french but a Frankofile! Alexander was most certainly a greekofile, but however not a Greek. He is a legend yes but his legends are interweaved with Greek legends and his is own Macedonian culture. I believe that Alexander King of Macedonia was a Macedonian, but Alexander the "Great" was both Greek and Macedonian.

[yiannis]

You may believe what you like. There're arguments for and against and you're free to use your judgement and pick the one you decide is more plausible. Fine by me.Just one comment: Philip and Alexander have not fought against the "Greeks". They fought against Thebans & Athenians. When it comes to the "atrocity" part, it was as such according to modern morality. Back then, it was a cruel but legitimate act that was repeated many times before in the constant wars between Greek city-states. Thebes was destroyed mainly by Alexander's Greek allies not him. Thebans had done the same to many neigboring cities.PS
I assume Ben Dover is not your real name? It would be a bit vulgar...

[marcus]

Hi Yiannis,Although whether Alexander was Greek or (Ancient) Macedonian, I'm sure you'll agree, is completely irrelevant to the modern Gk/Mac debate.We can argue until the cows come home about whether Alexander was 'Greek' or not; but it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with any political differences between Greece and FYROM.All the bestMarcus

[marcus]

Hear hear!

[lucinos]

I like what you say, it relay makes sense.
if you want to find some answers I suggest you to spend some of your time in the linkhttp://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/index.htmlmore relative links can be found in http://www.asxetos.gr/viewlinks.asp?catID=158+í+½+½+í +¬+í+¬ +¦+¦ +¦+Ñ +¦+¦+í+¦+¦+Ñ +Ñ+¬+¦+í+¬ +¬+í+¬ +½+¬+ú+» +¼+í+½+í+¬+í+¦...
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[yiannis]

Hi Marcus,I absolutelly agree that the discussion on Alexander's Greekness is completely irrelevant to the Greek/Fyrom controversy. It should be only an issue for historians. On the other hand do you see much rationale in todays' politics?Regards,
Yiannis

[yiannis]

Hi Marcus,I absolutelly agree that the discussion on Alexander's Greekness is completely irrelevant to the Greek/Fyrom controversy. It should be only an issue for historians. On the other hand do you see much rationale in todays' politics?Regards,
Yiannis

[stavros]

Hi JonaI was just proud the Athens organisers included and selected (amongst millions of other hellenic heroes they could have chosen) a hellenic hero like Alexander at the ceremony in Athens. Alexander spread his greekness and hellenism all the way to India, they had to include him in the ceremony, to fully complete each era of hellenism throughout history that was portrayed on the night. However, you are right. the olympics are about peace and friendship. The Idea of Having alexander marching through the athens stadium with 2000 infantry is inappropriate defeating the purpose and goodwill of the games and Olympic spirit. That would be the last thing the organisers would do.Stavros

[Niko]

Isn't it funny that only the 'greeks' that have a problem with Alexander's nationality, ...are the ones that CAN'T SPEAK MACEDONIAN. The ones that are fluent in both languages already know he was Macedonian.

[joe]

How can you explain that all the FYROM pages and arguments are all jumbled text, fake made up letters of Aristotle to Alexander, basically very few facts and even less proof ie where are their statues from the era? where are their monuments to him? where are all these? And how come Greece has them all?
you people need to get a university degree....