Spear in the back ...revisited

[smittysmitty]

As usually happens, we come across a reference that relates to a past thread discussed on this forum thence passes by into obscurity. I thought IGÇÿd reintroduce the reference in the event it may be of value to any one interested. Jan raised in a previous post, whilst reading a book, (canGÇÖt recall whoGÇÖs book it was) she came across the statement, GÇÿAlexander felt a pain in his back, as though he had been pierced by a spearGÇÖ, and we werenGÇÖt sure from where this information derived. Reading PlutarchGÇÖs account of Alexander once again, there it was! Plutarch: Alex; [75] GÇÿBut when Medius invited him, he went to his house to join a party, and there after drinking all through the next day, he began to feel feverish. This did not happen GÇÿas he was drinking from the cup of HerculesGÇÖ, nor did he become conscious of a sudden pain in the back as if he had been pierced by a spear: these are details which certain historians felt obliged to embellish the occasion, and thus invent a tragic and moving finale to a great actionGÇÖGǪ
Hope me adding this post doesnGÇÖt take up too much of peopleGÇÖs time.
IGÇÖm currently trying to recall a quote, and I canGÇÖt find it, regarding either Aristander or GÇÿSeersGÇÖ in general that, Alexander is said to have made. He apparently quotes Euripides and the gist of the quote is along the lines of GÇÿa Seer is only as good as his last prophecyGÇÖ, something to that effect! I thought it was Plutarch, but canGÇÖt track it down, oh well back to the books.
Cheers!

[jona]

Arrian, Anabasis 7.16.6. Alexander challenges the Chaldaeans, only to discover that they were right.Jona

[smittysmitty]

Many thanks Jona,
saved me hours of reading!
cheers

[dean]

Hello, Yes but what exactly was the quote?Upon reading your question I immediately thought of another quote regarding Callisthenes- and it is taken by Euripides "Hate the philosopher, who is unwise unto himself.." which upon looking in my version of Plutarch is immediately followed by another quote of Euripides,"With good topics,it is not difficult to speak well." again while addressing Callisthenes. (Excuse my translation- my copy is in Spanish.)I find it amazing that Alexander knew these works off by heart especially the Iliad- I mean it is not exactly a two or three page story. This I suppose demonstrates his immense love of the written word.Best regards,
Dean.

[jona]

"This I suppose demonstrates his immense love of the written word."Or, perhaps, that his earliest biographers already knew how to adorn a story...Jona

[amyntoros]

Perhaps it wasn't an adornment, Jona. This on Cassander from Athenaeus:Book XIV. 620 a - bRhapsodists were not missing from our drinking parties either. For Larensis enjoyed the poems of Homer as no one else ever has; so much so as to make Cassander, who once ruled Macedonia, look ridiculous. For of him Carystius says in Historical Notes that he was so fond of Homer that he had the greater part of the epics at his tongueGÇÖs end. He had even made copies of the Iliad and Odyssey with his own hand.Now, I suppose Cassander could have learned Homer in emulation of Alexander, but that would mean the tales about Alexander's knowledge were true. Then again, perhaps Cassander had also genuinely admired Homer. If it is, again, another biographer's embellishment, the question is - why in the case of Casander? I don't think it is particularly unlikely that Alexander could have had immense literary knowledge at the tip of his tongue. After all, before being written down, all the tales of Homer had been memorized. In this day and age, we consider that an enormous feat, but back then...Best regards,Linda Ann

[dean]

Hello, Yes- in Plutarch also there are numerous accounts of Alexander's passion for literature- dating back to childhood- where his tutor would call him "Achilles" and Lysimachus would be "Phoenix"-Anyway- in Plutarch- after the battle of Issus we find Alexander being asked what he would like putting into a casket of immense beauty that belonged to Darius,- and he answers, that he would like his version of the Iliad putting into it- his most prized possession. Plutarch even goes to the ridiculous extreme of saying that he even slept with his copy of the Iliad under his pillow along with his dagger.I think that memorizing passages from more popular works was the norm- even Cleitus the black recites a line from Euripides play "Andromache" seconds before his death- "Alas in Hellas what an evil government."Best,
Dean.

[jona]

Of course you're right. Any Greek or Macedonian or Roman could easily quote from several classical poems, because these texts were part of the standard curriculum.The point I was actually thinking about, and did not really work out, was that ever since Lane Fox wrote that "it is through Homer that Alexander comes alive", many scholars appear to have taken the Homeric part a bit too literal. It has almost become canonical that Alexander considered himself to be a rival of Achilles - now this is indeed written in our sources, but can we rely upon them?When Callisthenes, Aristobulus and Ptolemy wanted to say something kind about Alexander, it was obvious they had to make a comparison with Achilles. Herodotus had done the same with Leonidas (including a fight for his dead body that is impossible in a falanx battle!). This was simply the way things were done. Please note that the Vulgate tradition has a lot less Homeric stuff (although it is there).There's always Homer in Greek and related cultures; and of course Alexander's courtiers knew how to quote the poet. But we have no stenographic accounts of their table talks, and many quotes may have been made up by Alexander's biographers.In fact, we still employ Homer. There's quite a lot of bad modern war poetry about a soldier saying goodbye to his beloved one, usually at the gate of the barracks or a station. The Homeric parallel is too obvious to ignore, and I once read that Lale Anderson maintained on several occasions that "Lile Marlene" was inspired by Andromache / Hector too.Jona

[jona]

"Yes- in Plutarch also there are numerous account of Alexander's passion for literature"True, but can we trust Plutarch, who also quotes entirely fictious letters as reliable evidence, who messes up the chronology and whose aim in the ALexander biography is "to write a life, not history"? In my opinion, of our main sources, Plutarch is both the most accessible and least reliable."Anyway- in Plutarch- after the battle of Issus we find Alexander being asked what he would like putting into a casket of immense beauty that belonged to Darius,- and he answers, that he would like his version of the Iliad putting into it- his most prized possession."Plutarch had found this anecdote in Onesicritus, who is often criticized. But personally, I think this story is true. Yet, what does it prove? What else could Alexander have mentioned? Any other choice would have been criticized.I am not denying that Homer was important and I am also aware that many of Alexander's officers knew how to quote a tragedy. But I think we must not overstress the importance.Jona

[amyntoros]

Okay, I understand now the intent of your post - and yes, I agree with you to a great extent. Even Christine F. Salazar in The Treatment of War Wounds in Graeco Roman Antiquity includes a chapter on Alexander all about the Homeric allusions in extant accounts of his life - and she is specifically writing about his wounds! And yet... If Homer was so real and important, both to A's ancient biographers and to seemingly all in Alexander's time, especially the Macedonians, doesn't this mean it is entirely possible that Alexander consciously attempted to emulate and exceed the achievements of Achilles, and that this was not an invention of his biographers? I know we could debate this forever and not find an answer, but it does seem credible to me.Best regards,Linda Ann

[jona]

"I know we could debate this forever and not find an answer, but it does seem credible to me."At least there is very, contemporary strong evidence that Alexander emulated Heracles: his coinage. That he imitated Achilles is, in my view, by no means excluded. So, we agree.Jona

[dean]

Hello,I must admit that perhaps also, all truth told, I am being unconsciously swayed by Maxwell O'Brien's excellent biography- the invisible enemy- where works/quotes of Homer and Euripides seem to be interwoven into the very fabric of the life and times of Alexander.One also cannot deny that the actual act of crossing the Hellespont is extremely Homeric and Alexander's tossing the spear onto the approaching shore in emulation of Achilles was of course also. He even landed at Troy. Besides- Alexander's ancestry could be linked to both Hercules and Achilles/Neoptolomeus. So yes I do believe that Alexander respected and admired his ancestor. Peucestas even carried the shield of Achilles(supposedly his anyway) the shield certainly came in handy in Malia.Best regards,
Dean.

[jona]

"One also cannot deny that the actual act of crossing the Hellespont is extremely Homeric and Alexander's tossing the spear onto the approaching shore in emulation of Achilles was of course also."This is, I am afraid, exactly what I am denying. In the first place, evidence is weak; Arrian introduces the stories with "they say", which always means that he did not find this information in his best sources. It can also be found in Plutarch, who is not claiming to write history but is writing essentially a book of moral anecdotes.I am not denying that Alexander visited Troy. He had to cross the Hellespont anyhow, and Abydus was the normal place. A detour to Troy may have been little more than touristy thing, just like today tourists "do" Troy and Gallipoli on the same day. A visit, however, does not prove emulation. I was recently in Copenhagen and visited nearby Elsinor, but that does not mean that Shakespeare/Hamlet have really influenced my life.Another point: tossing the spear while approaching the shore is not Homeric - I am unaware of anything similar in the *Iliad*, at least. What is Homeric, though, is the word "dourikt+¬tos" ('won by the spear'). Yet, Homer does never use this word as justification of war; only female prisoners are won by the spear (maybe also possible: for the spear, sexual pun maybe intended by Homer).On the other hand, spear-throwing was a PERSIAN symbol of conquest (cf. the tomb inscription of Darius the Great "the spear of the Persian man has been thrown very far indeed"). If Alexander was doing anything more than just tourism at Troy, it was presenting himself as the anti-Xerxes, who had also visited Troy but had committed sacrilege."So yes I do believe that Alexander respected and admired his ancestor."Respected and admired, certainly, but emulated - it remains to be proven."Peucestas even carried the shield of Achilles (supposedly his anyway) the shield certainly came in handy in Malia."Please note that exactly this story causes Arrian's indignation (Anabasis 6.10-11) about the unreliability of his sources.Summing up: I agree that Alexander respected his ancestors and loved the poems of Achilles, but I also think that too much is made of it.Jona

[smittysmitty]

All sounds rather familiar!
I'm glad I don't stand alone on some issues.thanks Jona
cheers

[dean]

Hello,Forgive me for going on- I am willing to take on board that perhaps I have swallowed the romantic version of Alexander- and not only that I do love the idea this idea of Alexander was somehow living in competition with his ancestor. I do not profess any great historical knowledge- and I am sure that you have much more historical acumen than I. Mine being more of a layman's understanding. But still I am very interested in learning more.Let me get it right- you discount that Alexander was THAT bothered about his ancestor- had a relative interest- respect etc yet didn't overvalue the Iliad or Achilles?(similiar to say a child's interest in say one of the three musketeers.)Mary Renault makes an interesting assertion when she cites the withdrawal to the tent after the mutiny at Opis was a behaviour used by Achilles. I am sure that you will say that just because he withdrew into his tent it doesn't mean that he was;whether he knew it or not, copying.(which is OK)My last comment(promise) is regarding the episode to be found in Curtius- Batis in Gaza is dragged around the fort Achillean style. Now I am willing to accept that this perhaps is more a show of creativity on Curtius' part than historical reality- and yet I'd love to hear your view on the subject.Best regards,
Dean