Macedonian / Greek debate

[susan]

This is just a reminder that the Greek/Macedonian debate is really outside the scope of this forum - and certainly references to modern politics in that region. Susan

[beausefaless]

Isn't it awesome toeing a fine line? As you know how Alexander felt when he tried to incorporate foreign cultures with he's home boy's, very tricky, ain't it.
I'll give myself your answer :-I

[alexanders desciple]

This whole topic can be rounded off very simpmy; Macedonia 2300 years ago is totally something else to what it is today.2300 years ago the Greeks rated Macedonia Philip and Alexander semi barbaric none Greeks, they were not accepted as Greeks that was then.For the Greeks to lay claim to Alexander they must therefore abandon there own history and heritage.Alexander has nothing to do with Greece or Macedonia today the whole preface has changed,the borbers and politics have changed, but the original Macedonia inhabited by Philip and Alexander was at that toime disclaimed by the Greeks.Leave the debate alone Alexander was born a nd bread in Macedonia not Greece, he was Macedonian and not Greek!

[beausefaless]

You did not comprehend what I said and I totally agree with you but maybe someday you might forgive me but I will use my freedom of speech from free thought every opportunity I get and you or no one else will stop me, remember the censors will push the button as they see fit. Since you will not care to show your email address or do you, I will assume you are not up for a private debate.

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

2300 years ago the Greeks rated Macedonia Philip and Alexander semi barbaric none Greeks, they were not accepted as Greeks that was then.For the Greeks to lay claim to Alexander they must therefore abandon there own history and heritage.Alexander has nothing to do with Greece or Macedonia today the whole preface has changed,the borbers and politics have changed, but the original Macedonia inhabited by Philip and Alexander was at that toime disclaimed by the Greeks. Demsthanes was an Athenian propagandist with a political mission and was funded by the Persians to make speeches.Hesoid 7th cent bc and Herodutus 5th cent bc did in fact refer to the Macedonians as part of the Greek speaking world.Leave the debate alone Alexander was born a nd bread in Macedonia not Greece, he was Macedonian and not Greek! And Pella is part of Greece today.Alexander was northern Greek of Macedonian and Epiroti stock the way Pericles was a Athenian Greek and the way Leonides was a Spartan Greek.Greece was never a nation in ancient days but a composite of City States and Homeric Kingdoms that shared both a common language ,religion culture and ancestral ties.
Also the Macedonians claimed ties to Greek Royal Houses and decent from Greek Legendary Heros and Greek Gods.So your saying they were liers ?

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

original Macedonia inhabited by Philip and Alexander The Hellenic tribes were born exactly where the core of Makedonia was and is
today. (Lyngos' notion).In those close,tight,impassable,steep,mountain ranges
and plateaus,where the individual Hellenic tribes had plenty of protection
and food for their survival.It was in the Pindus range,in its close little
valleys,around the lakes of Prespa,Kastoria,Meliki,Axrida,Ioannina where
those AUTOCHTHONOUS tribes created HELLENISM and EXPORTED it to the South.
Karl Julius Beloch in his book "Hellenic History" explains how those HELLENES
descending from Makedonia conquered the lands to the South of Olympus
mountain,one after another,killing or subjecting non-Hellenic populations and
those non-Aryan pre-hellenic onesHe concludes on page 93 volume 1,1:""......
IN SUCH A WAY THE PUREST ETHNICALLY HELLENIC TRIBE-RACE MUST HAVE BEEN THE
MAKEDONIANS,AFTER THEM THE EPIROTANS AND THE THESSALIANS WHILE IN
STEREA-MAINLAND AND ESPECIALLY IN PELOPONNISOS THE INTERMEDDLING OF FOREIGN
ELEMENTS MUST HAVE BEEN MUCH GREATER,NOT ONLY BECAUSE WHEN THE HELLENES
ARRIVED IN THERE THEY WERE ALREADY INTERMARRIED WITH THE EARLIER LOCAL
POPULATIONS,BUT ALSO BECAUSE THE SOUTH PART OF THE PENINSULA DURING THE
ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES HAD ALREADY THEIR OWN CIVILIZATION AND MORE CONDENCE
POPULATION"".
You got that, FYROM and GRAIKYLIANS out there?
The PUREST ETHNICALLY HELLENIC RACE MUST HAVE BEEN THE MAKEDONIAN ONE!
the Makedonians were Hellenes.
No just any kind of them,but THE Hellenes,the "creme de creme" the
"anthogala" among the Hellenic tribes.

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

PART 2the fact that
the Makedonians were the Hellenes.
No just any kind of them,but THE Hellenes,the "creme de creme" the
"anthogala" among the Hellenic tribes.
the meaning of geographic Hellas
and Hellenism thru time.What used to be the oracle of Dodona became the
entire Hellenic mainland,it became Peloponnisos too and it became Southern
Italy,it became the Illyricum theme and it became Thrace,it became the land
between the Adriatic and the black sea it became Magna Grecia it became the
"Red Apple tree".
What used to be Helle's worshippers and Hellen's children became the Hellenic
Nations.The fact that the Makedonians as Karl Julius Beloch,Georg
Busolt,Fritz Geyer,Ulrich Wilcken,and so many others are telling us, were the
major of those tribes of the Hellenic Nation that remained in the beginning
of the Hellenic descent, in the mountainous Northern areas of Hellas WITHOUT
participating or partially participating in the activities of the other
Hellenic tribes to the South, and especially in the development of the
Hellenic civilization,is of non importance.The Makedonians were guarding the
entire Hellas,they were protecting the entire Hellas,they were safeguarding
what their brothers were building to the South.Without them no Hellenic
miracle could have ever happened.The representation of Hellas,by
Sparta,Athens,Corinth and the various city-states arrived to an end.It was
time for the ones protecting Hellas for so many eons,to receive the honor of
representing her again.

[Dimitrios Poliorketes]

Part 3
What more powerfull testimony to the Hellenism of the Makedonians,than the
fact that the world was conquered by Alexander in the name of Hellas?
What more powerfull testimony than the fact that preciselly that Hellenism
was communicated,transmitted,inplanted to the others in the Hellenic
language?
What more powerfull testimony than the fact that for the FULL Hellenization
in Asia and Africa were with Macedonian soldiers
When Phillip back in 360 B.C became the viceroy-supervisor of Perdikkas-his
brother-son,it was time for the MAKEDONIAN POLITEIA to accept the
responcibilities of Hellenism from the cities/states.The mountainous tribes
of Pindus,were coming back in full power to bring the torch of Hellenism
IF those Makedonian people were not ETHNICALLY Hellenes,if those people
Hellenized the East, than......WHEN did they BECOME Hellenes in order to
teach Hellenism to the Asians?
WHEN did they drop THEIR NON- Hellenic civilization in order to be subjected
to a new one?
WHAT happened to such Non Hellenic Makedonian civilization?
Such ABILITY of ADAPTATION overnight should be something UNIQUE,as Geyer
notes.Can you imagine?
Can you imagine those SUPER-PROUD Makedonians,droping THEIR
civilization,THEIR Gods,THEIR langauge,THEIR names,THEIR alphabet,THEIR
philosophy,THEIR everything,and in a MINIMUM spam of time accept EVERYTHING
HELLENIC?Think about it!

[DimitriosPolirketes]

part 4
The Truth is that the Makedonians were part of the Hellenic tribes.The truth
is that the Makedonians were Hellenes.The truth is that the Makedonians were
more Hellenes than the other Hellenes.They were like the Prussians of
Frederick the 2nd "The Great",being first and foremost Prussians and
then.........Germans.
Can one find more Germans than those Prussians?
Can one find more Hellenes than those Makedonians?
Alexander the Great took the torch of Hellenism to the East.Without him is
questionable if Parthenon would be standing in Acropolis today.Is debatable
if the world would have known about Hellenic civilization the way is knowing
it today!
Alexander used his old soldiers in order to complete the education and
transform the Barbarian world.The Hellenic "paideia",the hellenic "idea" the
hellenic "substance" was transported to the deeps of Asia and to the rest of
the world thanks to them.The Seleukides and the Ptolemies didn't like Alexander's plans with regards
the politics of "absorption".And yet..themselves,,,by creating more and more
new colonies and settlements,not only attempt,and pursuit such "absorption"
by they also became participants.They move in those hellenistic colonies and
settlements not just Hellenic mercenaries,not only other Hellenes from the
rest of Hellas,but in order to make SURE the FULL Hellenization of such
colonies and settelments,they placed Makedonians from the old land in those
new places.
Those, were Alexander's Makedonians given to him by his fatherPhillip,the
GREATEST among the GREAT ones.

[stavros]

followers of the king spoke greek. you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. you may as well study shakespere. i dont know what you have been reading.but your right about one thing. ancient greeks have nothing to do with fyrom. i am glad you can see that.. at least.

[Link]

Dear Susan,yes and yes, you have reminded people here before about this. But have you noticed how this type of post always induces the trigger for the forum's g bung polios to go polaric?

[marcus]

The easiest thing to do, if anyone introduces modern politics into a thread, is to IGNORE it.

[ruthaki]

The only thing I have to say is: when the problem was an issue of modern politics back in the early '90's, I had written my p.o.v. in a letter to the editor. It was noted by the Macedonian Greek consul here and as a result be became good friends and I found myself, because of the novel I was writing, being flown to Greece (to help with my research), feted by scholars and people from the Society of Macedonian studies and Ministry of Culture and I am truly, truly grateful for all their help. And all because I made a statement publicly re Macedonia which they appreciated.

[stavros]

.

[gb]

Somehow I'm getting the impression it's not getting through...----------------------------------------------------This moderated forum is for discussion of Alexander the Great. Inappropriate posts will be deleted without warning. Examples of inappropriate posts are: 0 The Greek/Macedonian debate 0 Blatant requests for pre-written assignments by lazy students - we don't mind the subtle ones 0 Foul or inappropriate language ----------------------------------------------------PS Marcus, I-¦d love to ignore them, but it-¦s a bit hard when there are several topics on the go at once.PPS I wouldn-¦t mind the discussion so much if there actually w+ís any discussion...