I Dispute The Arrows Blocked out the Sun

[jan]

Kenny,
I agree that this is poetic license by Stone who is actually referring to Thermopylae, and is just playing games with historians and viewers alike. It is interesting to consider that the famous Persian archers do not get much attention in the various historical descriptions of these battles, so obviously, the Greek narrative is all that is known. It would be interesting to read how King Darius's historians wrote these battles had they been literate enough to write. I have understood that the Persians did not keep written histories due to their illiteracy problem.Ruthaki is probably the most correct in the manner in which Alexander's army would have resisted the arrows had they had to shield themselves from them. It does appear that King Darius did not utilize that many archers due to his own personal arrogance and disregard for advice from his generals.Undeniably, Zeus, Minerva, and Aries played a great role in assisting the Greeks, as Alexander devoted so many sacrifices for their aid and comfort. These battles proved that the Greek gods and goddesses were more valuable than were the gods of the Persians, Ahuramazda. Those themes seem to get lost in these discussions too.

[jan]

Kenny,
I agree that this is poetic license by Stone who is actually referring to Thermopylae, and is just playing games with historians and viewers alike. It is interesting to consider that the famous Persian archers do not get much attention in the various historical descriptions of these battles, so obviously, the Greek narrative is all that is known. It would be interesting to read how King Darius's historians wrote these battles had they been literate enough to write. I have understood that the Persians did not keep written histories due to their illiteracy problem.Ruthaki is probably the most correct in the manner in which Alexander's army would have resisted the arrows had they had to shield themselves from them. It does appear that King Darius did not utilize that many archers due to his own personal arrogance and disregard for advice from his generals.Undeniably, Zeus, Minerva, and Aries played a great role in assisting the Greeks, as Alexander devoted so many sacrifices for their aid and comfort. These battles proved that the Greek gods and goddesses were more valuable than were the gods of the Persians, Ahuramazda. Those themes seem to get lost in these discussions too.

[Paralus]

Kenny, the archers were definitely there. These were (as has been pointed out) one of the cornerstones of the Persian military - as was the excellent cavalry.The Arrows "blotting out the sun" can be taken with the same twenty kilos of salt that one takes for Herodotus' figures for Xerxes army.We need to remember also that these bows bear little resemblence to the famed English longbow.In a showdown like Gaugemela, were I Darius, I'd have all my best options available!Paralus.

[Paralus]

Kenny, the archers were definitely there. These were (as has been pointed out) one of the cornerstones of the Persian military - as was the excellent cavalry.The Arrows "blotting out the sun" can be taken with the same twenty kilos of salt that one takes for Herodotus' figures for Xerxes army.We need to remember also that these bows bear little resemblence to the famed English longbow.In a showdown like Gaugemela, were I Darius, I'd have all my best options available!Paralus.

[Paralus]

Oh, by the way, it was the Spartans who "dissed" arrows - not the Greeks (though they were not very good at employing archers hence the Cretan mercenaries). It was a woman's weapon. They in fact called them (from that laconc fellow captured on Sphacteria) "spindles".Paralus

[Paralus]

Oh, by the way, it was the Spartans who "dissed" arrows - not the Greeks (though they were not very good at employing archers hence the Cretan mercenaries). It was a woman's weapon. They in fact called them (from that laconc fellow captured on Sphacteria) "spindles".Paralus

[kenny]

Michael HailI just had a recap with Generalshop of Alexanders and the battle formations for Issus and Gaugamella .It Is clear there were more archers At Issuss Two Formations to the left and right towards the Front.Yet at Gaugamella there was only a very Small attatchment to the Left of darius and further back.I therefore they were there to Protect Darius and not to do what they should do and cause Havock with front line Advancing forces. Indeed a load of salt.Those Compound bows held more kick than the traditional Yew long Bow. Just to add I cant get any yew wood anywhere in england to make one how strange is that?Kenny

[kenny]

Michael HailI just had a recap with Generalshop of Alexanders and the battle formations for Issus and Gaugamella .It Is clear there were more archers At Issuss Two Formations to the left and right towards the Front.Yet at Gaugamella there was only a very Small attatchment to the Left of darius and further back.I therefore they were there to Protect Darius and not to do what they should do and cause Havock with front line Advancing forces. Indeed a load of salt.Those Compound bows held more kick than the traditional Yew long Bow. Just to add I cant get any yew wood anywhere in england to make one how strange is that?Kenny

[jan]

Kenny, I believe I read that Alexander was wounded in the thigh. But I must object to anyone ever being able to describe any of these battles with objectivity. Who stood at the sidelines in a position to really see what was happening during battle? When you are engrossed in doing your part in the storm, whose memory is so good when the adrenalin is running so high as to recall each and every moment.Imagine how the wounded were counted. Only by the removal of armor would anyone have any idea who lay dying and who is only wounded. With the vast numbers of men involved, that would have taken days alone to collect all the weapons and armament. So I personally believe that all estimates of dead and living can only be approximate and all descriptions of battle are pure fantasy.Old soldiers sitting around spinning tales of their own individual efforts would be a great foundation for a worthwhile novel. Then we might get a better picture of why history itself is so elusive.

[jan]

Kenny, I believe I read that Alexander was wounded in the thigh. But I must object to anyone ever being able to describe any of these battles with objectivity. Who stood at the sidelines in a position to really see what was happening during battle? When you are engrossed in doing your part in the storm, whose memory is so good when the adrenalin is running so high as to recall each and every moment.Imagine how the wounded were counted. Only by the removal of armor would anyone have any idea who lay dying and who is only wounded. With the vast numbers of men involved, that would have taken days alone to collect all the weapons and armament. So I personally believe that all estimates of dead and living can only be approximate and all descriptions of battle are pure fantasy.Old soldiers sitting around spinning tales of their own individual efforts would be a great foundation for a worthwhile novel. Then we might get a better picture of why history itself is so elusive.

[marcus]

It wasn't an arrow wound, though, Janet (if that is what you were thinking).Kenny - I'm not entirely sure (I'd need to check) but I don't think the bows were necessarily of composite type. So the 'kick' you get from composite bows wasn't there ... hence not nearly as deadly as one might think.In India the bows were much more like longbows - as tall as a man - so one can imagine that there was a lot of power in them ... no wonder that, at relatively close range, an arrow pierced Alexander's corselet and went straight into his lung ...ATBMarcus

[marcus]

It wasn't an arrow wound, though, Janet (if that is what you were thinking).Kenny - I'm not entirely sure (I'd need to check) but I don't think the bows were necessarily of composite type. So the 'kick' you get from composite bows wasn't there ... hence not nearly as deadly as one might think.In India the bows were much more like longbows - as tall as a man - so one can imagine that there was a lot of power in them ... no wonder that, at relatively close range, an arrow pierced Alexander's corselet and went straight into his lung ...ATBMarcus

[kenny]

Marcus HailMaybe Im wrong with composite bows. In the movie at Gaugamella They looked composite bows.Mongolian Bows were composite and known to be superior to long bows.Theres a lot of confusion even with longbows. I see them all the time in movies looking very flimsy. Apparently in real life the real bows were much thicher and the Archers trained specifically to draw these., Achiologost have discovered that the Archers bones were much thicher and developed.They didnt really practice for accuracy. Only to launch volley after volley of inch thick arrows over a mile. You gottta watch battlefield Britain and Agincourt. 700 archers loosing 10 arrows a minute thats devastation. That would block out the sun. Anything near that would cause serios damage to the Phalanx or cavalry. I doubt any reall archery force at eithe Issus Or Gaugamella. Used Efectively Archers were nasty.KennyAcording to Micheal Wood the Arrow got under Alexanders arm Pit and entred the lung from there. To add it must have bloody Hurt and cracked some ribs digging that baby out.

[kenny]

Marcus HailMaybe Im wrong with composite bows. In the movie at Gaugamella They looked composite bows.Mongolian Bows were composite and known to be superior to long bows.Theres a lot of confusion even with longbows. I see them all the time in movies looking very flimsy. Apparently in real life the real bows were much thicher and the Archers trained specifically to draw these., Achiologost have discovered that the Archers bones were much thicher and developed.They didnt really practice for accuracy. Only to launch volley after volley of inch thick arrows over a mile. You gottta watch battlefield Britain and Agincourt. 700 archers loosing 10 arrows a minute thats devastation. That would block out the sun. Anything near that would cause serios damage to the Phalanx or cavalry. I doubt any reall archery force at eithe Issus Or Gaugamella. Used Efectively Archers were nasty.KennyAcording to Micheal Wood the Arrow got under Alexanders arm Pit and entred the lung from there. To add it must have bloody Hurt and cracked some ribs digging that baby out.

[amyntoros]

Because I have little else to do on a Sunday afternoon . . . :-)http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcelo/archery/l ... er4_2.html
'From Herodotus's description of the army which Xerxes led against the Greeks we learn that a very large proportion of his troops were armed with bows. So numerous, indeed, were the archers that before Thermopylae Dieneces - said to have been the bravest of the Spartans - was told that when the Medes began to shoot they would obscure the sun by the multitude of their shafts. To which Dieneces gave his famous answer, 'so much the better for the Greeks, for they would then have to fight in the shade.' Various kinds of bows were to be found in the host of Xerxes. The Persians themselves, the Medes, the Hyrcanians, and many others, had long bows, and arrows made of cane. These were probably composite bows, but bigger than the short horn bow carried by the Scythians, which, when unstrung, was said to be similar in shape to the Black Sea. The Bactrians had bows made of cane peculiar to their country, and the Indians had bows of cane, and arrows of cane tipped with iron. At no time, probably, was the horn bow universally used throughout Asia, although it was the typical Asiatic weapon. Indeed, a highly finished composite bow would always be an expensive weapon, whereas bamboo bows, though less effective, would be easily come by. The Arians were furnished with Medie, that is, composite, bows, though in other respects they were accoutred like the Bactrians. The Arabians carried long bows which bent backwards while the Ethiopians carried ' long bows,' not less than four cubits in length, made from branches of the palm-tree, and on them they placed short arrows made of cane, instead of iron-tipped with a stone; which was made sharp, and of that sort on which they engrave seals -- some form of agate probably. The Lycians had bows made of cornel-wood, and cane arrows without feathers Neither the bows nor the arrows of these gentlemen could, therefore, have been very formidable weapons. It was usual, however, for both Greeks and Asiatics to feather their arrows, the eagle's feather being probably thought most highly of, as Hesiod ('Shield of Hercules,' 134) describes the arrows of Hercules as being 'at the butt covered with the feathers of a dusky eagle.' ATBAmyntoros