Herodotus Book 1 56-MAKEDON is 1st mentioned

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

THE HISTORIES OXFORD WORLD CLASSICS For these 2 peoples on Pelasgian and the other Hellenic. When Decaulion was their KING they were living in Pthia ,but in the time of DORUS Son of HELLEN they were in the territory around MT OSSA and OLYMPUS (Macedonia),known as HISTAEOTIS.Having been evicted from HISTAEOTIS by the Cadmeans and setteled in MT PINDUS where they were called MAKEDONIANS.Next,they moved to Dryopis,and finally reached the Peloponese where theywere called DORIANS. PELASGIANS ( USED TO BE ATTIC INHABITANTS-ATHENIANS) spoke a NON GREEK language who must of learned a new language at a time became HELLANIZED!!
58- It seems CLEAR to ME that ,however that the HELLENES have ALWAYS spoken the same language ever since they began . Herodotus clearly associates the the name MACEDON and MACEDONIANS as decendents of the HELLENES.HERODOTUS claims however that the ATHENIANS were HELLENIZED not the MACEDONIANS . Since Herodotus wrote this well before PHILLIP'S age at a time when ATHENS not MACEDONIA was the major power there was no reason for him to lie.HERODOTUS himself a DORIAN and he thus is saying that his ancestry is associated with the MAKEDON.Herodotus account was never disclaimed by GREEKS. The Macedonians = barbarians had its origin in ATHENS and was politicized by opponents of Phillip and his supporters such as ISOCRATES!!!

[lazar]

Herodotus:
Perdicass ( said to posses divine powers ) and his brothers escaped from the king in Argos and formed Macedonian Dynasty.Theopompus:
has Caranus for the founder, brother of Phidon, king of Argos.Justin:
Appolo guided Caranus and during violent rainstorm he he overtook Edessa (Aegea).Euripides:
Archelaus son of Temenus as a founder of the dynasty.Pausanias:
Caranus fought with the neighboring king Cisseus, king of Macedonia, and after he defeated him he proclaimed himself a king f Macedonia.Diodorus:
Argead king is led to Aegea by white horned goat, for to enlarge the state of Macedon.
Hesiod:
speaks that Macedon is son of Deukalion's daughter Thyia and Zeus himself, Which makes Him (Macedon) a cousin to Dorus, Xonthus and Aeolus, the children of Hellen.
Then, Hellanicus makes Macedon son of the same Aeolus and not his cousin.
Main deity in Argos Peloponesse was Hera wich as we all know it is not a Hellenic Deity, thus Macedon can be excluded from the hellenic family.

Then there is another version of Macedonian dynasty coming down from Argos Oresticon, town in Macedonia Proper.Did it occur to any of you that MAYBE Macedonian kings "pushed" these stories through these historians so they can eventually gain something for themselves. Like Greek respect, or maybe teritory or for the purpose of trade or whatever?Because there are REALLY a lot of incosistencies.

[lazar]

I forget to mention Herodotus where he states that Macdonian kings told the story about their Argive Descent:
"I happen to know, and I will demonstrate in a subsequent chapter of this history, that these descendants of Perdiccas are, as they themselves claim, of Greek nationality. This was, moreover, recognized by the managers of the Olympic games, on the occasion when Alexander wished to compete and his Greek competitors tried to exclude him on the ground that foreigners were not allowed to take part. Alexander, however, proved his Argive descent, and so was accepted as a Greek and allowed to enter for the foot-race. He came in equal first." book 5. 22.
First, notice that IT IS NOT Herodotus that says that the Macedonian kings were of Greek nationality, but the Macedonian kings as they THEMSELVES claim.
Second, nobody except Alexander had to PROVE his descendancy so he can join the games...?????
Third: there is no written record that he ( Alexander I ) won the race.

[lazar]

Herodotus:"...if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours..."So it seems that Athenians really where Pelasgic but they PASSED into Hellenic body and changed their language, while other Palasgians retained their tongue which was barbarian to Herodotus."These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people..."This does not mean that if Athenians came from Palasgians, all of them ( Pelasgians ) became Hellenes, as he sais, and he states that most of Pelasgians were in fact Spartans,i.e., Lacademonians, Who SPOKE BARBARIAN LANGUAGE???A lot of incosistencies in these stories, don't you agree?Regards

[lazar]

Description of Greece by Pausanias
Leosthenes at the head of the Athenians and the united GREEKS defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia" [1.1.3]."I have already said in my history of Attica that the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the GREEKS" [9.6.5]"After the death of Alexander, when the GREEKS had raised a second war against the Macedonians, the Messenians took part, as I have shown earlier in my account of Attica" [4.28.3]."When Philip the son of Amyntas would not let Greece alone, the Eleans, weakened by civil strife, joined the Macedonian alliance, but they could not bring themselves to fight against the GREEKS at Chaeronea. They joined Philip's attack on the Lacedaemonians because of their old hatred of that people, but on the death of Alexander they fought on the side of the GREEKS against Antipater and the Macedonians" [5.4.9].
"When Philip, the son of Demetrius, reached men's estate, and Antigonus without reluctance handed over the sovereignty of the Macedonians, he struck fear into the hearts of all the GREEKS. He copied Philip, the son of Amyntas" [7.7.5].Pausanias wrote a lot about Macedonians and Greeks and he clearly made a distinction between the two Ancient Nations as you see in above passages from his work.Regards

[Lazar]

Ancient History Sourcebook:
Arrian: Anabasis Alexandri: Book VIII (Indica)XVIII. For Alexander, when his fleet was made ready on the banks of the Hydaspes, collected together all the Phoenicians and all the Cyprians and Egyptians who had followed the northern expedition. From these he manned his ships, picking out as crews and rowers for them any who were skilled in seafaring. There were also a good many islanders in the army, who understood these things, and Ionians and Hellespontines. As commanders of triremes were appointed, from the MACEDONIANS, Hephaestion son of Amyntor, and Leonnatus son of Eunous, Lysimachus son of Agathocles, and Asclepiodorus son of Timander, and Archon son of Cleinias, and Demonicus son of Athenaeus, Archias son of Anaxidotus, Ophellas son of Seilenus, Timanthes son of Pantiades; all these were of PELLA. From Amphipolis these were appointed officers: Nearchus son of Androtimus, who wrote the account of the voyage; and Laomedon son of Larichus, and Androsthenes son of Callistratus; and from Orestis. Craterus son of Alexander, and Perdiccas son of Orontes. Of Eordaea, Ptolemaeus son of Lagos and Aristonous son of Peisaeus; from Pydna, Metron son of Epicharmus and Nicarchides son of Simus. Then besides, Attalus son of Andromenes, of Stympha Peucestas son of Alexander, from Mieza; Peithon son of Crateuas, of Alcomenae; Leonnatus son of Antipater, of Aegae; Pantauchus son of Nicolaus, of Aloris; Mylleas son of Zoilus, of Beroea; all these being MACEDONIANS. Of GREEKS, Medius son of Oxynthemis, of Larisa; Eumenes son of Hieronymus, from Cardia; Critobulus, son of Plato, of Cos; Thoas son of Menodorus, and Maeander, son of Mandrogenes, of Magnesia; Andron son of Cabeleus, of Teos; of Cyprians, Nicocles son of Pasicrates, of Soh; and Nithaphon son of Pnytagoras, of Salamis. Alexander appointed also a Persian trierarch, Bagoas son of Pharnuces; but of Alexander's own ship the helmsman was Onesicritus of Astypalaea; and the accountant of the whole fleet was Euagoras son of Eucleon, of Corinth. As admiral was appointed Nearchus, son of Androtimus, Cretan by race, and he lived. in Amphipolis on the Strymon. And when Alexander had made all these dispositions, he sacrificed to the gods, both the gods of his race and all of whom the prophets had warned him, and to Poseidon and Amphitrite and the Nereids and to Ocean himself and to the river Hydaspes, whence he started, and to the Acesines, into which the Hydaspes runs, and to the Ind

[lazar]

Forget to mention: "And when Alexander had made all these dispositions, he sacrificed to the gods, BOTH the gods of HIS RACE and all of whom the prophets had warned him, and to POSEIDON and AMPHITRITE and the Nereids and to Ocean himself and to the river Hydaspes, whence he started, and to the Acesines, into which the Hydaspes runs, and to the Indus, into which both run; and he instituted contests of art and of athletics, and victims for sacrifice were given to all the army, according to their detachments."It is clear that he made a sacrifice to his OWN RACE gods, i.e. Macedonian gods, along with the other gods.Regards

[lazar]

Thrasymachus and EuripidesAnd Euripides having said in Telephus: "Shall we GREEKS be slaves to Barbarians? Thrasymachus, in the oration for the Larissaeans, says: "Shall we be slaves to Archelaus -- GREEKS to a Barbarian?"Note, here they are stating GREEKS, not Athenians or Spartans, or Thebans, or whatever else.

[lazar]

Isocrates[107] For they endeavored to win this honor by engendering factions, disorder, and bloodshed in their own cities; he, on the other hand, held entirely ALOOF from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon. For he knew full well that the Hellenes were not accustomed to submit to the rule of one man, while the OTHER RACES were incapable of ordering their lives without the control of some such power.
Here Isocrates clearly states ( despite attaching Helenic ancestry to Phillip) that Philip went to rule over people of non-kindred,other then hellenic, race, i.e. Macedonians.[108] And so it came about, owing to his unique insight in this regard, that his kingship has proved to be quite set apart from that of the generality of kings: for, because he alone among the Hellenes did not claim the right to rule over a people of kindred race, he alone was able to escape the perils incident to one-man power. For history discovers to us the fact that those among the Hellenes who have managed to acquire such authority have not only been destroyed themselves but have been blotted, root and branch, from the face of the earth; while he, on the contrary, lived a long and happy life and left his seed in possession of the same honors which he himself had enjoyed.Here again mentions that Hellenes were kindred race and others NOT. (the race Philip was a king to in Macedonia, Macedonians)
[154] It remains, then, to summarize what I have said in this discourse, in order that you may see in the smallest compass the substance of my counsels. I assert that it is incumbent upon you to work for the good of the Hellenes, to reign as king over the Macedonians, and to extend your power over the greatest possible number of the barbarians. For if you do these things, all men will be grateful to you: the Hellenes for your kindness to them; the Macedonians if you reign over them, not like a tyrant, but like a king; and the rest of the nations, if by your hands they are delivered from barbaric despotism and are brought under the protection of Hellas.He urges Philip to work for good of Hellenes (Not Athenians, Spartans, Thessalians, Corinthians, Thebans and others, but for all HELLENES), to be a king to MACEDONIANS which are obviously excluded from the Hellenic family in this letter.So, despite making Philip Helene, Isocrates makes a CLEAR DISTINCTION between HELLENES and MACEDONIANS.Best Regards,Lazarp.s. This i

[lazar]

cont...p.s. This is a Greek version of Isocrates letter To Philip 5.154
[154] loipon oun esti ta proeir+¬mena sunagagein, hin' h+¦s en elachistois katidois to kephalaion t+¦n sumbebouleumen+¦n. ph+¬mi gar chr+¬nai se tous men Hell+¬nas euergetein, Makedon+¦n de basileuein, t+¦n de barbar+¦n h+¦s pleist+¦n archein. +¬n gar tauta pratt+¬is, hapantes soi charin hexousin, hoi men Hell+¬nes huper h+¦n eu paschousi, Makedones d' +¬n basilik+¦s alla m+¬ turannik+¦s aut+¦n epistat+¬is, to de t+¦n all+¦n genos, +¬n dia se barbarik+¬s despoteias apallagentes Hell+¬nik+¬s epimeleias tuch+¦si

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

Did it occur to any of you that MAYBE Macedonian kings "pushed" these stories through these historians so they can eventually gain something for themselves. Like Greek respect, or maybe teritory or for the purpose of trade or whatever? ThaLook at the statement Herodotus made.THE 1st QUOTE BY HERODOTUS that MACEDONIANS were related to the HELLENES is direct and affirmative.That the tribe known as Hellenes took on different names in areas it settled.This was an account related to beliefs about Greek origins prior to HERODOTOS and was very similar to HESOID account 300 yrs prior thus it was not invented ny MACEDONIAN KINGS.In 720 BC when Hesoid wrote his account MACEDONIA was not a major power in Greece .HESOID and HERODOTUS had no reason to appease MACEDONIA at that time.

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

First, notice that IT IS NOT Herodotus that says that the Macedonian kings were of Greek nationality, but the Macedonian kings as they THEMSELVES claim. If the MACEDONIAN KINGS were of the GREEK nationality and the MACEDONIAN PEOPLE were NOT then one is implying that the ROYAL HOUSE of MACEDON was a foreign dynasty.If that was the case then a nation as proud as the MACEDONIAN one would of rebelled against a foreing dynasty.Why would native MACEDONIANS accept foreign Kings,a foreign language ,foreign Gods ,foreign heros ect?
Second, nobody except Alexander had to PROVE his descendancy so he can join the games...????? But it was a competitor with an axe to grind that raised the issue. The point is that he was allowed to compete as only GREEKS could do so by the Olympic Commitee.The decision was final and affirmative.
Third: there is no written record that he ( Alexander I ) won the race. There are records of Macedonian Olympic Victors I will post these later. Also why would the MACEDONIAN KINGS make such claims and use GREEK ROYAL SYMBOLS if they themselves dis not beleive this to be true? Were they liers? And why would the other GREEK states accept such claims were if they did not beleive it to be true? The earlier testimony of HERODOTUS that identifies MACEDONIANS as HELLES is independent of the Olympic verdict.Macedonians were identified as GREEKS prior to the Olympic verdict.

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

( Pelasgians ) became Hellenes, as he sais, and he states that most of Pelasgians were in fact Spartans,i.e., Lacademonians, Who SPOKE BARBARIAN LANGUAGE??? First of all it seems evident that you did not read Herodotus in his entirety.HE SAID THAT THE SPARTANS WERE THE MOST POWERFUL of THE DORIAN PEOPLES.THat the DORIANS were decendent from the MACEDON who were decendent from the HELLEN who used the name MAKEDON when they settled in the PINDUS region. And he said that Athenians were Pelasgians BEFORE
becomming accepted into the HELLENIC family of nations from whiched they ceased to become PELASGIAN That the HELLENIC NATIONS absorbed foreign peoples including PELSASGIANS. Once again the name MAKEDON is associated with the original decendents of HELLEN.You can try to reinrterpit all you want but you can't change what HERDOTUS wrote. THE SPARTANS ARE UNDOUBTABLY ASSOCIATED WITH DORIANS who were decendent from MAKEDONIANS who were decendent from HELLAS.

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

Hesiod: speaks that Macedon is son of Deukalion's daughter Thyia and Zeus himself, Which makes Him (Macedon) a cousin to Dorus, Xonthus and Aeolus, the children of Hellen. Thank You for bringing up HESOID Please re examine his GEONOLOGY DEUKALION is FATHER of ALL GREEKS MAKEDON is a DECENDENT of DEUKALION AND PHYRRA MAKEDON IS A BOTHER TO MAGNES ANCESTOR OF THESSALIANS (GREEKS) and is cousin to DORUS,XUNTHUS,
AEOLUS(GREEKS) thus part of the same family. This means in 720 BC the MACEDONIANS are mentioned as part of the original geanology of Greek peoples almost 400 yrs before ATG. Thus why would they be considered GREEK in 720 BC but not in 330 BC? HESOID had no motive to appease MACEDONIAN KINGS at that time. As I said before testimonies can be subject to interpitation.But it is clear that both HERDOTUS and HESOID mention MAKEDONIANS among the early Greek speaking peoples.IN addition both HESOID and HERODOTUS place origins of early GREEK peoples in central and NORTHERN GREECE not in the South.This is entirely consistent the fact that GREEK TRIBES originated in NORTHERN GREECE. I will discuss archeological factors to back up these testimonies later.
Then, Hellanicus makes Macedon son of the same Aeolus and not his cousin. This implies that Hellanicus in 500 BC beleived MACEDONIANS to be GREEK Why ? Again he had no motive what so ever to appease MACEDONIA. Regards , Dimitrios

[DimitriosPoliorketes]

Lazar I suggested that before we get to ARRIAN or the PHillip Alexander era that we first deal with HERODOTUS and other writers who mentioned MACEDONIA before Phillip.Lets 1st establish how Macedonians were viewed by Greek historians and other primary sources described MACEDONIANS to their glory days in terms of ethnicity. But since you brought up ARRIANHe (Alexander) sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia
There are plenty of quotes from ARRIAN that support the Greek identity of the MACEDONIANS. Reagards