i want your opinion about the persian boys epigonous.

[bill giannakos]

Which is your opinion about epigonous the persian boys that trained like macedonians.I am Macedonian and i want your opinions.And a second think do you believe that Alexander was easy to believe anything he heared?i talk about Kleito's death,Parmenion and Filota and at the end Kallistheni.

[S]

Greetings Bill,It would be helpful if you let us know what aspect of this you are interested in exploring. Are you asking if we think this was an actual occurence? Or are you asking what we think of why ALexander did it? Or ???
As to the second, I think you are asking if we think Alexander began to believe every rumour he was told,
and that led to the deaths of the people named?I think the second issue goes deeper than that. It is important to remember that the men following Alexander were not "lambs led to slaughter", that political intrigue was often the order of the day
(a great many kings in Macedon died violently) and power is a great temptor. It often comes down to what each person *wants* to believe of the stories, since the ancient sources themselves do not always agree on these particular events. By the time of these incidents, Alexander probably realized he did not have full support from many of his people- and that could well have led to suspicion, mistrust and openess to the rumour mill, leaving Alexander susceptible to manipulation and his own nature.Of course, I have my own feelings about these events like everyone else...and I don't see too many of those named as being completely innocent victims. Not to say Alexander was right to do what he did, at all, but I understand it..in that time and place, amongst those people and under those conditions,who can say what *should* have been done and what the results of a different decision would have been? This does not exonerate the actions, but I understand them.
Regards,
Sikander

[Kit]

Sikander,I can agree with what you say with regards to Philotas and Parmenion, but I just can't accept that Cleitus the Black's death was justified, purely for laughing at Proskenysis!After all, ATG backed down over this issue following Cleitus and Callisthenes opposition (representative, we would assume, of a broad spectrum of Greeks/Macedonians), with regards to his Macedonians at least.I can only put this down to alcohol abuse, on that occasion at least, and the fact that Alexander was not thinking and acting rationally. With Philotas/Parmenion he was calculating- which I can (ironically) find easier to accept.I would have to say that Cleitus, at least, could be viewed as an innocent victim- maybe ATG did as well, hence his rather elaborate reaction when he realised what he had done?regardsKit

[S]

Greetings Kit,
I did not say the death was justifiable, but understandable. To understand a thing is not necessarily to condone it, but to recognize why, given all the conditions, a thing happened.There was probably more to this than "laughing at proskynesis" (I believe this was a different incident?); if I recall, the "official story" refers to Kleitos calling Alexander's quality of leadership into question while praising Philip's? Dangerous thing, to raise Philip's ghost up to Alexander at that time, in that way, especially if you were "old school"...and I *think* there was an argument about misfortune in a battle and how the surviving Makedonians were paying a higher price than the dead?
I also believe there may well have been even more words spoken than are recorded...This was not the same group who had left Makedon- they had changed; some had soured, others had begun to watch Alexander with a wary eye, still others had begun to have their own ideas, some had risen over those who had once held sway, and others were probably longing for the familiar ways they had grown up with instead of all this -dare I say it?- "multiculturalism"? ..and Alexander was not the Alexander they had known back home...
Regards,
Sikander

[bill giannakos]

Dear friend
i remember that the one laughed was Antipatros and Alexander didn't kill him he just pushed him.

[S]

Greetings Bill,
Was there not also an incident recorded somewhere that Kassander laughed and Alexander knocked his head into something, leading to the tale that, after Alexander's death, Kassander would tremble if he saw a particularly well-done statue of Alexander?
Regards,
Sikander

[Tre]

Hello Kit:A couple of comments of my own. Parmenion and Philotas being executed was certainly not calculated by any means. It is Curtius, surely one not to favor the death of either, who says that initially Alexander wanted to forgive Philotas, but he was convinced by his friends to do otherwise. Do not ever underestimate those that surrounded the King, they had their own agendas, and none of them included playing second fiddle to Philotas or Parmenion. Once he was convinced that Philotas had to go, than there was no real choice regarding Parmenion. Being King was a hard and ugly job - people tend to forget that and see only the glory.As for Kleitus - what you should do is think of what Alexander would have done sober had anyone insulted him to that level. Mind you, this was not a Macedonian speaking his mind to the King, this was plain insult and certainly treasonous behavior being displayed in front of his most important men - Plutarch suggests that Klietus even called the King's courage into question. At one point Alexander had him escorted out, so he had controlled himself for rather a long time. I also agree with S and Lane Fox that there were far more insults thrown, not recorded by Ptolemy out of frienship. I have no doubt Alexander would have pulled his sword on anyone who insulted him in that fashion stone cold sober, the only difference is that on this evening, the King killed an unarmed man who was once someone he called a friend over dinner, who he had once owed his life to. He lost control of himself, in front of the Persians and in front of the Macedonians and partly because he had drank too much. So yes, I can understand his reaction of self-horror and shame afterward, but I do not condone his death in that fashion, nor by the King's reaction, did he either. If you refer back to my original comments on Philotas, this was another example of Alexander not wanting to deal with a potential problem with someone close to him until it got out of hand. In some respects, he was too good to his friends and he did not want to judge them as he should have as to their motives, and it cost him dear. Regards,Tre

[Kit]

Tre,There is an arguement that Alexander was attempting to remove the influence of the Parmenion faction from positions of command. Given Parmenion's popularity it would have been difficult to attack him directly, hence Philotas was utilised.The removal of Philotas thereby made the decision to remove Parmenion more 'understandable' to the rank and file Macedonians. It was, however, the removal of Parmenion that was the aim all along. It is always difficult to determine how much influence Alexander's friends had on him, however, if anyone could resist peer group pressure I would imagine Alexander could- his single mindedness was one of his most obvious personality traits. I doubt that he allowed Philotas to be executed unless he really wanted him to be? It would have been useful if the removal of Philotas could have been laid at the feet of his friends, with Alexander reluctantly yielding to their demands (I agree that they were happy to see Philotas gone for various reasons, Parmenion's removal was a boost for Craterus' career as well). Alexander could remove Philotas/Parmenion and deflect the blame for this to his friends! But then we all know that Alexander was a master strategist!I think we may have to agree to differ on this topic. I still feel that the removal of Philotas/Parmenion was a calculated move; Cleitus may well have over stepped the boundaries as you say.All the bestKit

[Tre]

The problem with the Parmenion conspiracy theory is there is no evidence, only speculation at best. It also assumes Alexander is an idiot, not a master strategist, because he gave Parmenion the money and sent him away where he could not be properly watched. These are two nuts way too big for me to swallow :-)Regards,Tre

[smittysmitty]

Hi Kit and Tre,for what it's worth I also agree with you Kit, that Parmenio was targeted by ATG. As to a lack of evidence, it seems unique to most of what we believe of the times., as to motivation ,well thats a different story! The end result for Parmenio, would cleary suggest he was well and truely looked out for by Al, his finger was on the pulse all the time.just my thoughts.Cheers!

[Kit]

Tre,My take on this would be-1. How do we know that Alexander was not having Parmenion watched, and watched carefully? The fact he had sent him so far away with the money would suggest he had taken precautions (I agree that Alexander was no idiot). Also, Alexander did not necessarily expect Parmenion to do anything treasonable (hence he could still be entrusted with the money); he simply wanted him removed regardless as he was too influential in the King's eyes.2. If Alexander was looking for an opportunity to remove Parmenion then he would wish to do so at a location distant from himself- plausible deniability. This would also make it easier to control news of the execution/assassination, and reduce the risk of problems with the main body of the army (who remained with the King). As with so many things relating to Alexander: What happened is not in doubt, but why is open to debate.regardsKit

[Tre]

Then of course, if Alexander didn't expect Parmenion to do anything treasonable and therefore entrusted him with the money, logic follows there was no plot against Parmenion, does it not? But that will be my last word on this topic.Regards,Tre