Did Leptine exist?

[rafael]

Has anyone read a trilogy by italian author Valario Massimo Manfrede on Alexander? They are briliantly written,but in it Alexander is a heterosexual whose most important love is a queen named Roxana. Also tnere is a female servant name Leptine, that I think he made up. There is little of Hefestion. Did this Leptine girl really existed? He barely mentions Bagoas...

[jan]

Yes, I have read the trilogy. I sent a book review to Iksander and he sent it to the editor. That is the last I have heard of it.But I remember Leptine well, as she is an interesting character. I am rereading Arthur Weigall's version of Alexander which is based upon all the classical information written about ATG there is no mention of a Leptine. I believe this to be an invention of Manfredi's as is most of the book.The real Alexander is well examined by Arthur Weigall, but it is an old and rare book, published in 1933. I am concerned about how many copies of it are available and if anyone does know, I would like to hear of it.In this version of Alexander, which is the most fair and honest book I have read, his relationship to Hephaestion is described as that of a soul mate, and does not imply homosexuality at all.They were lifelong childhood friends, but were as close as two peas in a pod. Neither would let the other down and copied each other in many respects.Alexander is not cleaned up like a fish in this rendition but is presented forthrightly and honestly with all appropriate footnotes to show where he obtained his information. Excellent book!I want to know the number of copies so as to know whether to copy it, violating copyrght laws but I am a bit afraid of its becoming lost.Its value at the library is only $17. as I asked. I am very tempted to try to buy it, but I realize that others should get their use of it. However, the head of the library told me that many books get stolen and so I am concerned for this one, my first insight into the REAl Alexander.

[chris]

HiCan you post a little more detail about the Weigall book? Many thanks.Chris

[chris]

Hi (again)Sorry - scratch the last request...I checked the site! Silly boy.Chris

[Tre]

Leptine is purely fictional. Bagoas most certainly existed, although Tarn, who believed bisexual behavior was not becoming of a proper Scottish gentleman, took complete leave of his senses, forgetting that the ancients were not at all interested in his modern moralistic views, attempted to argue away the existence of Bagoas.With Hephaistion, the situation is murkier. While I have no doubt that they were lovers, for those who prefer not to think so, we do not have any sources from his time that mention this fact, though later ancient authors believed them to be so.Regards,Tre

[dean]

Dear Rafael,
No, she didn't- does Manfredi not say in his notes at the end of the book?By the way- Sissines of Egypt mentioned in the same trilogy did seem to have existed- as I read in the History of the Persian Empire by Olmstead.Dean

[marcus]

Hi Jan,While I have absolutely no intention of starting, or continuing, any sort of debate about Alexander's sexuality, I would just point out that Weigall was likely to be *very* circumspect if he was writing in 1933.I don't know whether Weigall was English or American (or, indeed, from anywhere else), but as the morals and, indeed, the legality of various sexual persuasions was very different in the early 20th century, there might have been very good reasons why he didn't mention it.All the bestMarcus

[jan]

Hi Chris, I believe you mean that you checked the info on Arthur Weigall. He is a British historian, so this is directed to Marcus as well. He is well known in Britain, and is the author of a book on Cleopatra as well. His interest was in Egypt, and finally after writing many books on that region, he finally tackles the subject of Alexander.His book is so interesting because he includes details that I had not read in other accounts. Most books I have read tell of events, but one of the more amazing stories that I just reread which hit me a lot is about when Philip was injured and Alexander protected him with his shield. Apparently, Philip did not take too kindly to this 16 year old boy acting so heroically on his behalf.The other detail that caught my attention is about hecate, a Greek goddess, and as I just read about the Divine Koran's comments on happy that is found in the religious section of this website, it all came to pass and makes sense to me.To remember him when one is happy is the comment that I am using as a reference point here.Those are important points that Weigall has contributed to the world of understanding about Alexander.As it is in my possession, and at home yet, I am still contemplating copying it so that I have access to all the footnotes. They are quite exceptional. He uses not only the ones mentioned on this site as written by Nick in his religious section but also other antique and ancient points of view.I am in a quandry.Hope I have helped your understanding.Jan

[jan]

Post Script:In addition, in Alexandria, Va., there is a wonderful monument to the first president of the United States, George Washington. It is the Masonic Temple on which are found the words engraved loud and clear, Happy. Inside the temple are words and pictures which relate to the importance of Hecate who is also important to the world of Islam.So all this unearthing of Alexander is well worth the search. Particularly to me and my discerning the truth.While in DC I went into the temple and finally I have reached Alexander. It is all a matter of time before we begin to understand true wisdom and true mission.Mission accomplished in my journey of the soul.Sincerely,Jan

[jan]

HI Marcus,I do not wish to debate his sexuality either. But Arthur Weigall is a British historian, very famous and well known in England. He wrote many books on the subject of Egypt, and on Cleopatra. His book on Alexander is the most interesting book about this controversial leader of men.Alexander is portrayed as a defender of women. He is abstinent in most of his youth regarding sexuality and there was concern for him from his father Philip about his lack of interest. But probably his mother's influence would have had quite an impact on his sensitive mind.Alexander is more Macedonian than Greek but he adopted Greek ways as his father had done before him. I hope that you will be able to obtain a copy of this book as I am certain you will enjoy it.I like the comment that Arthur used about his having been a "chosen vessel". That caught my attention early as I had become quite well known for using that term about myself years ago after I had been dubbed that in a most unusual way. I have to come to realize that Alexander's life is a very important life for me to understand as we are so similar in our youth, behaviour, and personality. A female version in this time for peace, and not for war. But learning of Alexander has helped me to understand some of the experiences of my own past, particularly those which were manipulated by others around me so that I would behave in such and such a way.The truth in the end is more interesting than the fiction, and while I understand the gay world very well, I must admit that my sexuality is strictly heterosexual as females are not my cup of tea.But I have my share of long time friendships from youth who are female, but I do not consider any of them to be a soulmate.I use the term soulmate more spiritually than do most. And I believe in it.Whether Alexander had sexual knowledge with anyone other than his wives is not a matter of record, but of conjecture.High regards to you,Jan

[marcus]

Hi Jan,But the point is that, highly respected as a historian or not, it would have been extremely... insensitive... for Weigall even to raise the issue that Alexander might have enjoyed relations with men, at a time when homosexuality was illegal in Britain and certainly looked upon askance. It has nothing to do with fact or conjecture - it just would not have done to make a conjecture. You only have to look at Tarn's opinions on the matter, writing in the 40s, to see how this carried through.All the bestMarcus

[jan]

Hi Marcus,There is a source which Weigall calls Athenaeus in which in the later years she believes that he had had an interest in men. This is the way in which Weigall describes Philip's concern for Alexander's beautiful appearance, as a potential cause for men's interest in him as homosexuality was quite common and Arthur Weigall does not avoid the subject at all. He discusses it point blank. It is not a threat or a problem for him(Weigall) to discuss, as he is considering the fact that boys like Alexander were prey for the men around Philip who had practiced both homosexuality and heterosexuality himself. But he was concerned about his son's lack of interest which Arthur calls continence. Apparently in his youth, Alexander is quite a sensitive and intelligent child, giving his father some concern for his future. Both Olympias and Philip found a woman for Alexander to enjoy sex with but the story is that she (Xallithenes or Kallithenes) had to often request Alexander to fulfill his duties to her sexually as he was not really very interested. It is rather amusing to me.Imagine! Worrying about Alexander's sex life so much, but there is much discussion of it throughout this book, and no homophobia, although Arthur does not believe that Athenaeus's contribution of Alexander having an affair late in his life with some one is probably true. That is Arthur's point of view. But there are sources that indicate that he may have, but puritanical attitudes or laws are not the reason that Arthur takes his point of view. He is very fair in his telling his story.I have not ever heard of Athenaeus except for these footnotes. Have you?Tarn is who has suggested that because litte is on record about his wives that he would not have made a good husband.I do not think that his silence about his wives would mean any such thing nor does Weigall. He is supposed to have loved both Roxanne and Barsine very intensely as I understand it. Roxanne is supposed to have taken his last breath into her lungs to save his soul. That is very touching, isn't it?Hephaestion married in the same manner that Alexander did so that their progeny would be related and would continue their dynasty. But Alexander's star was one that is like that of the horse Secretariat, one that could not sire successors to his own reign. Jealousy, envy, and covetousness destroyed them all. My best to you,Jan

[cluelessal]

WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU !!! IS THIS REAL HISTORY ??? WHAT DOES THE HORSE MEAN???

[jan]

This is real history. What don't you understand?The horse that is Secretariat is the wonder horse who won the triple crown in 1973. It has been observed that his offspring have never lived up to his reputation, form, and style; although, one can bet on them with some assurance. The comparison to Alexander is that Alexander is the wonderstar of his time period.The comments about his sexuality are from the book by the author. I do not know what it is that you do not understand.It is possible that another horse may win the triple crown this year. It is relevant to the study of Alexander as when Alexander was born, his father had just won a horse race. Horses are a very integral part of the life of Alexander. And it is possible that Funny Cide, like Secretariat, may become the first triple crown winner in 25 years of horse racing.Do not shout! I can hear you!Jan