What about Renault?

[willeverett]

This is my first visit to this site and my first posting. This has probably been discussed here ad nauseum. If so, my apologies.I'm reading Mary Renault's "The Persian Boy". Having done little spade work into her source material, I'm curious to hear from any of you who have read the book and have opinions on the veracity of her treatment of Alexander. I must say the book is verrry compelling, and I'm tempted to take her at full value. Are there any glaring errors or poetic embellishments that I should be wary of? What do ATG aficianados think of Renault?Will

[susan]

Hi Will
Welcome to the forum - I hope you'll find it useful.I think Renault is very good, but hers is only one interpretation of Alexander - others are possible. Because of the scanty nature of the sources, she had to guess at people's motives and character traits in order to make gripping novels.People often think that something is true because they have read it in Renault, but if you look at the sources, there is very little evidence, or the character traits of people could be interpreted quite differently. For instance, she depicted Roxane as having a fiery temper, but there's very little evidence in the sources for what Roxane's character was like, it was more a novelist's ploy to make her characters come to life. Also Bagoas , from the history of Curtius, comes across very differently - taking bribes and using sex to persuade Alexander to have innocent people killed.
Renault chooses to depict him in a different way, because the Alexander in her novels would not have had a lover like that.Fine, if you remember it's historical fiction - but it isn't necessarily true.
Personally, I feel that her Alexander is not tough or ruthless enough to have done the deeds the historical Alexander did - there's little sign of the darker side in her novels.You can also read reviews in the Books section of this forum.RegardsSusan

[nick]

Hi Will -I tend to stick to non-fiction Alexander books. To tell the truth: Persian Boy is one of the only two Alexander novels I ever managed to read alpha to omega. I liked the book as one of the few really interesting Alexander fiction books.However, I am amazed by Renault's interpretation of Alexander in her "Nature of... "As Susan said, I think we have a nice collection of Books to Read and Book Reviews here. I would gladly encourage you to read more. Welcome to the Forum. It is always a pleasure to greet new contributors.Regards -
Nick

[Linda]

Dear WillI can echo what Susan said - I love Renault, preferring The Persian Boy to Fire from Heaven. However beguiling Bagoas is as a narrator (and he is a very appealing character) it is clear that someone is whitewashing Alexander - Bagoas or Renault. The fire from heaven which drives him on is a very pure fire - he needs to do some terrible things to get what he wants - but essentially he is a white-souled Englishman. The "real" Alexander as we see in the histories is darker, has more humour, and can be petty, jealous and cynical, as well as brave, idealistic and generous.I think she is fairly truthful to the facts, although she leaves things out, and puts some spin on certain incidents - for example, as Susan said Baogoas was heavily implicated in the downfall of a Persian nobleman (according to Curtius), in revenge for a slight (the nobleman called him Alexander's whore). Renault cannot bear to have Bagoas portrayed in this way, and so the nobleman becomes the betrayer of Bagoas's father and the cause of his slavery and castration. Alexander is avenging his lover, as well as punishing a possible thief. Bagoas, in Renault, pulls the nobleman's arm,and asks if he recognises him from long ago. In Curtius, a furious, triumphant Bagoas beats the nobleman as he is being taken away. I am sure there are prejudices in both interpretations. I am sure people can add other inaccuracies or identify non-historical incident (eg no evidence Roxanne tried to poison Bagoas, Alexander did not kill his first man at 13). The Persian Boy is more "accurate" than Fire from Heaven, as more is known about that period in his life than his childhood.Renault brought me here..Have you read her other books. If you thought The Persian Boy made your heart bleed, try The Last of the Wine...
Linda

[pam]

Actually, I like Last of the Wine and Mask of Apollo...dare I say it...better than Persian Boy. As strictly fictional characters (except of course Thettalos), she is better able to develop these people within the historical setting. She is also not working as hard to put the *proper* spin on events. However, I love the way she manages to tie both of these to Alexander in the end.
But she is still my favorite read, even when the fiction overwhelms the historical.

[Linda]

Oh, I liked Last of the Wine - it was just very sad. I have ordered Mask of Apollo. I tried Bull from the Sea, but i think I do prefer her more fictional books becasue, as ou say, she has more freedom to compile a story. She is Alexandrocentric...all roads read to him.

[agesilaos]

Renault got me interested too though I preferred Fire from Heaven; Funeral Games is good too and she doesn't have to worry about white-wshing Alexander; on the whole her interpretation is very Tarnesque and I'm a Bosworthite but a good story is a good story; Singer of Praises about Simonides is good as well.

[dean]

Hello,
I think that Renault is practically flawless.
Her Alexander is obviously a highly empathetic creation but holds great charm.
I agree though that she rarely if ever portrays him in a negative light and forgives him all his sins.
One reason perhaps why she decided to change Curtius' account of Bagoas' cruel treatment of the guy alleged to have killed his father is perhaps because she never really felt that Curtius was a very trustworthy source.
I must admit that it was thanks to the fiction-novel that I became interested- Mr Manfredi no less.
So no matter what is said about him I have him to thank for that. And of course Renault whose writing has a depth that is for me deeper than the ocean.
Best wishes and welcome to this forum.
Dean.

[dean]

Hello,
I think that Renault is practically flawless.
Her Alexander is obviously a highly empathetic creation but holds great charm.
I agree though that she rarely if ever portrays him in a negative light and forgives him all his sins.
One reason perhaps why she decided to change Curtius' account of Bagoas' cruel treatment of the guy alleged to have killed his father is perhaps because she never really felt that Curtius was a very trustworthy source.
I must admit that it was thanks to the fiction-novel that I became interested- Mr Manfredi no less.
So no matter what is said about him I have him to thank for that. And of course Renault whose writing has a depth that is for me deeper than the ocean.
Best wishes and welcome to this forum.
Dean.

[ruthaki]

I have great respect for Mary Renault and have read almost everything she ever wrote including her very first novels which were not historical. As for her interpretation of Greek myths, legends and history, remember that she is not writing a history text book but 'historical fiction' (just as I do) and therefore can use poetic license to interpret her characters the way she sees them. I simply loved "Fire From Heaven" and refer to it often. "Persian Boy" was good also. But "Funeral Games" was a huge disappointment. She wrote it late in life, was obviously not well and in a hurry to finish as she died soon after. It seemed more like a documentary of events -- very little character development. This is the period I am writing about and I've had a great time developing the characters, especially those of the women involved and Alexander's little-known son Alexander IV.
The sub plots in this period of history are intriguing and exciting. The characters are strong, interesting and often some of them (such as the women) are overlooked by the historians. I especially also loved Renault's two books about Theseus. Read the first one when I first visited Knossos and was amazed at the accuracy of her setting details. The whole book came alive for me.
Also the "Mask of Apollo". I've visited a lot of the theatres she mentions in that book and found it very well researched.

[ruthaki]

Here are some things about fiction writing that probably most of you haven't taken into account. First, you do the research as meticulously as you can and try to keep as closely as possible to the historical thread of the plot. You also do careful research about details such as food, clothing, habits, sacrifices, rituals etc. All of these have to be as accurate as possible. Then you research your characters. From everything you can find out about them (in histories, which is sometimes not much and slanted) to the place where they lived, the lives they must have lived in those places. And all the other details of life in those times. And from that you mould the characters as you percieve them. I was in Dodoni and through those mountains of northern Greece where Olympias lived and used to travel (to Pella) probably on horseback. And in those days those mountains were more forested and full of wild animals, very rugged terrain. Also in the HIndu Kush where Roxane grew up. These were not city women who sat at their looms. They were tough and hardy and more than likely had temperments to go along with it. Also, in those days, if you didn't watch out for yourself you were the victim so they were devious and perhaps even vicious in what they did. So the historical fiction writer gets in touch with their characters (just as Renault had her interpretation of Bagoas, from her research). We are not writing history texts. We are weaving stories from what we know and have researched. Everyone has their own special interpretation of these characters but in fact, nobody on earth really knows, not even the historians. It's all just a guess. So who is to say what is right or wrong?

[marcus]

Hi Ruth,Something just occurred to me as I was reading your post, about Roxane's temperament. Although I can't think of anything in the sources that indicates that she was a vindictive etc. woman, I was reminded of the reputation that Afghan women had in the nineteenth century, during Britain's somewhat ill-advised dealings with the country (2 wars and numerous other skirmishes). Kipling put it rather succinctly:When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.Lovely ladies, one and all!All the bestMarcus

[susa]

That's what we lovely ladies do to protect our honour and life from greedy strangers. :)Actually this doesn't say about Roshane's or Afghan women's temperament, but women in general, i think. Try going to the hinterland in the northeast of Brazil and try intruding into their lives.

[marcus]

Hi Susa,Well, as Kipling said (in a different poem):"the female of the species is more deadly than the male.":-)All the best - and be gentle with the Amazonian natives.Marcus