The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipolis

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Xenophon
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
Sand liquifaction[sic] would result in anything denser than the sand-air mix (e.g. marble) sinking to the floor. You have described a process which might remove marble fragments from the middle of the fill, but would not put them into the middle of the fill.
For someone with some knowledge of science, this is a surprisingly wrong statement. :shock:

Nothing could be further from the truth ! There is a well known phenomenon called gravitational convection, or more popularly the "Brazil nut effect" or "Muesli effect" whereby in a mix of different sized particles subject to vibration, the larger and heavier ones ( somewhat counter-intuitively ) rise to the top.In fact a popular children's science experiment involves placing pebbles in a jar, filling it with sand, and then shaking the jar and watching the pebbles rise. It can be seen in farmers fields with certain types of soil subject to liquefaction, and in glaciers. In the case of Amphipolis it will have been seismic activity over the centuries that has provided the vibration, causing the stones to rise..........

Speaking of seismic activity, I wonder if all Pothosians are aware of the fact the reason that most ancient buildings, particularly those of the Eastern Mediterranean, are 'ruins' is seismic activity/earthquakes, and not due at all to man-made causes/demolition. In fact most 'stone robbing' or re-use of building materials occurs after the original building has been shaken down.

A classic example is that of Masada, because it was largely undisturbed by human activity since the Romans took it in AD 74 [not AD 73]. In pristine desert conditions preserved items included food of the defenders, leather sandals, wooden items, human remains with the hair still intact in plaits, clothing and many other fragile items - and much of it in the open rather than preserved through burial. Yet of Herod's vast palace complex, not one building remains, and not even walls over a metre or so high, save here and there. The whole complex is completely flattened into rubble. This is because the area is particularly earthquake prone and there have been literally hundreds of severe earthquakes down to the present time.
[digression: What many people think is the Roman siege ramp is in fact a natural feature which gave access to the plateau. It fell short of the top of the plateau, and the Roman ramp was built on top of it. Not a skerrick of the ramp remains, save for some timber re-inforcements shaken to the base of the ridge, preserved by the pristine conditions]

Now Greece does not suffer so much, but being one of the countries on the edge of the Aegean plate,does have frequent earthquakes and there can be little doubt that the Amphipolis tomb has suffered some seismic damage at the very least. The degree of this, and what damage is attributable to human activity remains to be seen.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Efstathios »

There is some talk about the remains of a swan somewhere in the first room (yes, a swan). I also read somewhere about the reserve heads at the egyptian tombs which may have a connection with the sphinx's head on the 3rd room implying some kind of burial ritual, or maybe not. The next press conference is at Tuesday, which is also a national holiday, (the NO day from 1940).

Some interesting facts from the architect at the dig, Mr Lefantzis: The height of the lion with his base x 10 times = the diameter of the tomb, 158.4 meters. And that x 1000 = 15840 meters, the perimeter of the walls of Alexandria. All these and other interesting facts were presented at the 2013 convention about the dig.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by agesilaos »

Effi, this 15840 metres is a bogus figure drawn from Mahmoud Bey's survey which included section of estimates, see Taphoi's post 4/Sept for the full detail.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

Xenophon wrote:Nothing could be further from the truth ! There is a well known phenomenon called gravitational convection, or more popularly the "Brazil nut effect" or "Muesli effect" whereby in a mix of different sized particles subject to vibration, the larger and heavier ones ( somewhat counter-intuitively ) rise to the top.In fact a popular children's science experiment involves placing pebbles in a jar, filling it with sand, and then shaking the jar and watching the pebbles rise. It can be seen in farmers fields with certain types of soil subject to liquefaction, and in glaciers. In the case of Amphipolis it will have been seismic activity over the centuries that has provided the vibration, causing the stones to rise..........
Gravitational convection would mean that the sand would actually have to flow rather than merely "liquify". Since there was nowhere for it to flow to or from in this chamber nor anything to drive the flow, that is quite impossible. The energy required to lift a half tonne block of marble half a metre off the floor is enormous. It is inconceivable that merely vibrating the sand could do it. :lol: Therefore the blocks found embedded well above ground level are there because that is where they fell. In other words the chamber had been partly filled with sand at the point that the doors were broken.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

Efstathios wrote:There is some talk about the remains of a swan somewhere in the first room (yes, a swan). I also read somewhere about the reserve heads at the egyptian tombs which may have a connection with the sphinx's head on the 3rd room implying some kind of burial ritual, or maybe not. The next press conference is at Tuesday, which is also a national holiday, (the NO day from 1940).

Some interesting facts from the architect at the dig, Mr Lefantzis: The height of the lion with his base x 10 times = the diameter of the tomb, 158.4 meters. And that x 1000 = 15840 meters, the perimeter of the walls of Alexandria. All these and other interesting facts were presented at the 2013 convention about the dig.
The swan thing is here: http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/item/% ... E%BF%CF%85
But it is not surprising to find the odd swan skeleton in thousands of tonnes of riverbed sand in my view.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Xenophon »

Taphoi wrote:
Since there was nowhere for it to flow to or from in this chamber nor anything to drive the flow, that is quite impossible.
....alas, more nonsense, as anyone can prove for themselves by performing the 'pebbles in the jar' experiment I referred to. There is "nowhere for it [the sand] to flow to" in a sealed jar, but the pebbles rise !! The principle is exactly the same in a sealed chamber....The weight of the 'pebble' is irrelevant, since the rise is caused by the smaller particles working their way beneath the larger due to vibration, and in this instance seismic action supplies all the energy needed. Huge boulders emerge from farmers fields and glaciers due to precisely this effect. (just 'google' the phenomenon).
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by gepd »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdjhFMAdEk

History of the modern excavations to the Kastas Hill, described by the journalist of the National TV channel following Peristeri and her excavations since 2010. I can summarize some things later, unless somebody else does this first.

Regarding the dating of the tumulus, the journalist highlights that this is known from 2012, based on movable fragments (pottery etc) among others. This is a very nice review, unfortunately only in Greek.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Zebedee »

agesilaos wrote:Effi, this 15840 metres is a bogus figure drawn from Mahmoud Bey's survey which included section of estimates, see Taphoi's post 4/Sept for the full detail.

True, though there's possibly a lot to be said for a consistent unit of measurement holding true for any particular architect in this period?
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by agesilaos »

We don't know enough architechts to make a good sample, but it seems unlikely, the measurements of buildings are usually conditioned by the space available rather than 'signature measures'; in this particular case the modern metres do not reflect any whole number of ancient units which casts further doubt on this interpretation, IMHO.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ »

Just a very quick reference on some highlights from Mrs. Papafotiou presentation regarding the history behind the excavation, from its start in 2011 till today, based on the video link that gepd posted before:

Right off the title: "A dig which will (re)write History" - the reporter is very down to earth in all her comments and views and she approaches all the subjects with the outmost professionalism, something that is VERY rare in the field of Journalism in modern Greece - should be kept in mind. For her to start the presentation (and finish it) with this little RE-, indicates knowledge of substantial evidence that proves the RE-, although she states at many instances throughout that she is no liberty to disclose any more from what she is presenting this night...

Before the talk, the Mayor of the city just makes some general comments regarding the dig, but takes more than the average time to point out that Mrs. Peristeri has been badgered again and again by the so-called authorities (Professors of Athenian Universities and archaeologists) because she is just an ordinary archaeologist and not part of the University "structure"

Mrs. Papafotiou presentation:
"...Hill 133 (the one opposite the Kasta tumulus - on the NorthWest) has been worked by Mr. Lazarides and it has revealed a magnitude of finds and several Macedonian tombs..."
"...Mrs. Peristeri was initialy set (at the time) in 2011 to look for the Amphipolis theatre, BUT she suddenly changed her mind and turned her attention to the Kasta tumulus.."
"...she started by making horizontal and NOT the usual vertical cuts..."
"...she started wt the north face of the tumulus, where she made her first discovery of the perimeter wall, which at that part had intact just the lower 2 bands of domoi..."
00:31:56 - "...here you see a portion (the remains) of a WWI artillery shell. The West face of the perimeter wall is completely destroyed due to the fact that the Bulgarian artillery used the mount as an artillery range..."
00:33:17 - -Mrs.Papafotiou: "Whose tomb do you believe to be?"
-Mrs.Peristeri: "I am expecting a lot. My data point to unbelievable things...""
00:35:21 - "...she (Mrs.Peristeri) was certain of the dating, which was set by both movable finds (VERY IMPORTANT ones), ceramics and others, which I am not in liberty to mention.."
00:36:08 - "...the banding (of the dopmoi), the tools used by the craftsmen, the way the stone was shaped and worked, all pointed towards a precise dating..."
00:36:25 - "(Mr.Peristeri asking a rhetorical question): "WHO could ordered all these, who could've PAID for all of these..."
00:39:10 - "Wednesday morning, October of 2012, after 3 months of talking about it, the first interview is "aired"..."
00:44:30 - "... (Mrs Papafotiou commenting about the value of the find based on her talks wt Mrs.peristeri) It is beyond a National level (the value), it is of a GLOBAL level..."
00:46:59 - "...April of 2013, after the addition of Mr.Lefantzi, we have the first announcement of the name "Deinokratis"..."
00:57:35 - "...it is during the March 2014 Annual Archaeological Congress of the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki that Mr.Lefantzis announces that the whole monument is a "Mathematical Mausoleum"... ...we have the usage of a Macedonian emvatis (ΕΜΒΑΤΗΣ), a set measurement under which all things in a construction are scaled by the Macedonian architects and constructors, so to end up wt a balanced (the actual greek word used being harmonic) construction... ...in the Amphipolis Monument the height of the Lion statue is our emvatis. Its pedestal is 2 times its height, the height of the mount was 5 times its height, the Monuments diameter is 30 times its height..."

Phases of construction:
Image
Image
Image

Image
the Deinokratis connection

Image
reconstruction of the Lions pedestal based on finds from the Amphipolis site, the current location of the Lion by the river Strymonas and from a concentration of marble blocks at lake Kerkini (at about 60km from Amphipolis Monument !!!)

1:06:06 - "...it is well known that we have significant movable finds..."
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ »

If the hill was used as an artillery range by the Bulgarian army (and the reporter is not just using the term freely):
1) Thank God it was WWI ordances and not WWII
2) Thank God they were using the western side
3) It us just AMAZING that we are actually finding Θ3 standing!!!
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Taphoi »

ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ wrote: Image
They appear to be using the Braun & Hogenberg map of Alexandria from a plate engraved about 1575 for the Deinocrates connection. They should be using the Mahmoud Bey map (below) from which the 15840m was taken.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by gepd »

That is only a map the journalist attached in her presentation - probably the first she found with google. She even includes diagrams in her slides taken from various amateurs blogging about the excavation.

Thanks ΙΑΠΕΤΟΣ for the summary - couldn't have done it better. The journalist shows some slides from the presentations of Peristeri et al. in the Thessaloniki conferences in 2013 & 2014, which were very well attended. She was also present there. She and several other journalists are aware of many more findings from the early stages of the excavations - it is remarkable how nothing has leaked yet. Probably out of respect for the excavator, not the government.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

Post by Efstathios »

Yes the title "Re-writing History" could suggest Alexander III. On the other hand, if it's Kassandros or some other King, it could fit the description as from what we know so far all the Kings were buried in Pella. However this title was given just a few days ago, and the reporter surely had in mind the whole fuzz and speculation that's being going on since August. In the video she says in some point that it took her 2 hours to write the transcript for the interview back in 2012 as she wanted to be careful with her wording. That indicates that the title is also carefully worded.

As i see it, all the evidence and leaks and the secrecy of the Ministry, point to either Alexander III or maybe Hephaestion (because he is also Alexander). Mrs Kottaridi made a public hypothesis that the tombs she found at Vergina could be of Kassandros and family, but in the Amphipolis dig they act as if they have found a UFO. For sure though, this whole dig has ignited and re-ignited the interest of many people in archaeology and history.
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Re: The Sphinxes Guarding the Lion Tomb Entrance at Amphipol

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