Kashan Rose

[marcus]

Dear all,

I am trying to trace a 'story' that the Kashan Rose (or, in fact, just a plain old rose) was brought from Persia to Thrace (or Greece) by Alexander's soldiers. There's nothing that I have found in Pliny or Strabo, and I suspect that it is one of the stories that attributes something to Alexander for want of a proper historical interpretation.

Has anyone come across this, and if there's any reference I'd be grateful.

ATB

[athenas owl]

Off the top of my head, I think that the Gallica rose and or the Dog rose were native to the region...it isn't as though there weren't local roses before Alexander.

I am not really familiar at all with the Kashan Rose. But there may have been some serious rose "travels" during the Ottoman period, if not sooner. I'm thinking specifically of the Damasks (after Damascus)..my beloved Rose de Rescht is getting ready to bloom as I write...

Where did you read about the Kashan Rose? I'd like to read up on it.

[rocktupac]

Yes, I too am interested in the Kashan rose. I have never heard of it, I'm sorry to say.

I don't know of any story that relates the bringing of the rose from Persia to Thrace (or Greece) by Alexander's soldiers, but I do know that Herodotus mentions the sons of Temenus traveling to a part of Macedonia and settling "near the place called the Gardens of Midas, the son of Gordias, where roses grow wild -- wonderful blossoms, with sixty petal apiece, and sweeter smelling than any others in the world" (8.138). I'm certain you have read this before, but at least by Herodotus' time roses were commonly growing in the region around Mt. Bermion, well before the return of Alexander's soldiers.

Does this help at all? Or were you looking for something different?

[rocktupac]

Also, Pliny 12.13 talks about "the Macedonians" coming across a "tree" (in India?) where the "calix of the fruit is similar to the dog-rose."

[amyntoros]

Yes, I too am interested in the Kashan rose. I have never heard of it, I'm sorry to say.

I don't know of any story that relates the bringing of the rose from Persia to Thrace (or Greece) by Alexander's soldiers, but I do know that Herodotus mentions the sons of Temenus traveling to a part of Macedonia and settling "near the place called the Gardens of Midas, the son of Gordias, where roses grow wild -- wonderful blossoms, with sixty petal apiece, and sweeter smelling than any others in the world" (8.138). I'm certain you have read this before, but at least by Herodotus' time roses were commonly growing in the region around Mt. Bermion, well before the return of Alexander's soldiers.

Does this help at all? Or were you looking for something different?

There's a note on a Wikipedia page (of all places) which questions whether the "rose gardens" of Midas were "a late interpolation". It goes on to say, "Though the rose was associated with Aphrodite in Rhodes and Cyprus, roses otherwise do not appear in Greek mythology, and Greek rose gardens were not adopted from Macedonian, but from Persian models: Midas' other domain, Phrygia, became a Persian satrapy in 546 BCE." Interesting comments because the Persians did have some influence on Greece before Alexander's time. For instance, it's my understanding that the Greek couch/bed was Persian in origin, so it would be perfectly reasonable for roses from Persia to have made their way to Greece prior to Alexander's conquests. On the other hand, much of the evidence for the cultivated rose seems to be Hellenistic. For instance, such roses have been found in Macedonian tombs because of their association with Aphrodite, but all the tombs are of the later period. And in Egypt it appears that the rose did post date Alexander. According to Thomas Christopher's book, In Search of Lost Roses "the roses that Flinders Petrie exhumed all dated from after the Greeks' arrival in the Land of the Pharoahs." He credits Ptolemy with the introduction of roses; says that Ptolemais, the port Ptolemy built was called "rose bearing … …. because of a characteristic of the place", and tells us that "Rose bearing tombs also appear with the arrival of the Ptolemies, and it was during their rule that Egyptians developed the first international floral trade."

So … it isn't too farfetched to believe that the Kashan rose was introduced to Thrace after Alexander's conquests. It's another of those instances where it can't be proved with any certainty, but it’s a reasonable supposition, IMO.

P.S. (Here because I don’t know how to put it after my signature!) Contrary to the Wikipedia note, I do know of one mythological instance where the rose is mentioned. Homeric Hymn number 2 to Demeter tells how Demeter's daughter "was playing with the deep-bosomed daughters of Okeanos and gathering flowers over a soft meadow, roses and crocuses and beautiful violets, irises also and hyacinths and the narcissus, which Gaia made to grow at the will of Zeus and to please Polydektor (the Host of Many), to be a snare for the bloom-like girl …" I don't however, know the Greek word which has been translated as "rose", but if a correct translation I'm sure that a wild rose is meant. The Kashan rose bears no resemblance.

Best regards,

[rocktupac]

P.S. (Here because I don’t know how to put it after my signature!) Contrary to the Wikipedia note, I do know of one mythological instance where the rose is mentioned. Homeric Hymn number 2 to Demeter tells how Demeter's daughter "was playing with the deep-bosomed daughters of Okeanos and gathering flowers over a soft meadow, roses and crocuses and beautiful violets, irises also and hyacinths and the narcissus, which Gaia made to grow at the will of Zeus and to please Polydektor (the Host of Many), to be a snare for the bloom-like girl …" I don't however, know the Greek word which has been translated as "rose", but if a correct translation I'm sure that a wild rose is meant. The Kashan rose bears no resemblance.

Best regards,

The word used in the hymn is rhoda, which doesn't really say much. It is a generic word for rose as far as I know. Pindar uses the same term for a rose (rhodois) in the Isthmian ode 4, as does Herodotus at 8.138 (rhoda).

[marcus]

Off the top of my head, I think that the Gallica rose and or the Dog rose were native to the region...it isn't as though there weren't local roses before Alexander.

I am not really familiar at all with the Kashan Rose. But there may have been some serious rose "travels" during the Ottoman period, if not sooner. I'm thinking specifically of the Damasks (after Damascus)..my beloved Rose de Rescht is getting ready to bloom as I write...

Where did you read about the Kashan Rose? I'd like to read up on it.

Hi Athenas Owl.

For a while I wondered whether the Kashan Rose and the Damascus Rose were one and the same; but apparently they're not. The Kashan Rose is (I assume) named after Kashan in Iran, which has some very famous gardens, and which is famous for its rose water (I had rose-water profiteroles in Kashan - lovely, but sickly sweet).

The Damascus Rose came to Western Europe during the Crusades, so they can't be the same thing.

ATB

[marcus]

I don't know of any story that relates the bringing of the rose from Persia to Thrace (or Greece) by Alexander's soldiers ... Does this help at all? Or were you looking for something different?

Thanks - it is as I thought, one of those unsubstantiated stories, like "Alexander didn't like cats". I really haven't been able to find a reference anywhere, and if Pothosians cannot help out ... well! ...

So … it isn't too farfetched to believe that the Kashan rose was introduced to Thrace after Alexander's conquests. It's another of those instances where it can't be proved with any certainty, but it’s a reasonable supposition, IMO.

I agree to a certain extent. The only thing against it being Alexander's soldiers during the period of conquest that I can think of is that the army didn't go near Kashan ... but after the return from India, possibly post-323, it would have been quite possible, I suppose. But without any evidence ...

ATB

[athenas owl]

Alexander hated cats...they don't have a subservient bone in their little fluffy bodies.

Seriously, though, I think often, a whole lot of the goods, like flowers and fruits, etc from the East started heading west because of Alexander. Not that he, or his own army, actually brought the items back with them, but the decades and centuries that followed saw the flow of goods rise dramatically. It's just more romantic to attribute it specifically to ATG's own hand though.

Marcus, I agree that the Damask most likely came with the Ottomans...but I don't think that would preclude someone saying that Alexander brought it or the Kashan.

Oh, lord, that reminds me...I was puttering around and had the TV on the History (and I use that term quite loosely) Channel. I think it was some show on ancient aliens, not on purpose I swear! I had my head down trying to recreate Roger Dean's futuristic home on paper. Anyway, I perked up when I heard Alexander mentioned...something about giant flying shields in 329. And then, seven years after that, some laser like beam cracked open the wall of Tyre for him. Yes, I wrote that "correctly"....apparantly Alexander was just so frakkin' awesome that he besieged Tyre a year after he died. I bet he was wearing a Kashan rose tucked behind his ear, too.

[rocktupac]

Alexander hated cats...they don't have a subservient bone in their little fluffy bodies.

Cats, churches, and very small rocks!

Oh, lord, that reminds me...I was puttering around and had the TV on the History (and I use that term quite loosely) Channel. I think it was some show on ancient aliens, not on purpose I swear! I had my head down trying to recreate Roger Dean's futuristic home on paper. Anyway, I perked up when I heard Alexander mentioned...something about giant flying shields in 329. And then, seven years after that, some laser like beam cracked open the wall of Tyre for him. Yes, I wrote that "correctly"....apparantly Alexander was just so frakkin' awesome that he besieged Tyre a year after he died. I bet he was wearing a Kashan rose tucked behind his ear, too.

Yes, I have heard that story too. I'm not sure where (perhaps it was something on the History Channel) but I recall hearing that flying 'shields' were reported to have helped Alexander during the siege of Tyre; this was during the actual siege and not post mortem. This isn't in the Romance, is it? It's been so long since I've read it.

[athenas owl]

Well, I went and looked it up...why, I'm not sure. Boredom?

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case491.htm

It's interesting, seems the first mention they could find was an unsourced claim in 1959. As in, to put it bluntly, making it up.

Marcus, about the Kashan Rose, did you come across the Bulgarian claim that ATG brought the roses from Kashan? Of course the rose oil industry there didn't start until the 17th century, but nothing is "sexier" than attaching ATG's name to something.

http://rosevalleyoils.com/bulgaria/

This one says that ATG's troops brought the first roses from Thrace (Bulgaria).

http://www.bulgarie-information-bulgari ... _roses.htm

[marcus]

Marcus, about the Kashan Rose, did you come across the Bulgarian claim that ATG brought the roses from Kashan? Of course the rose oil industry there didn't start until the 17th century, but nothing is "sexier" than attaching ATG's name to something.

http://rosevalleyoils.com/bulgaria/

This one says that ATG's troops brought the first roses from Thrace (Bulgaria).

http://www.bulgarie-information-bulgari ... _roses.htm

Aha! Thank you for that. Well, no, I hadn't got it from there - it was actually something my mother heard and asked me about; but she has just confirmed that she read about it on that website.

Unsubstantiated romantic story, I'd say. Particularly as we know of very few soldiers who went out with Alexander, who actually made it back to Macedonia ... and if they did, then why did they take the rose to Thrace!

ATB