Alcibiades. Need info.

[Phaedo]

And what if Alcibiades was suffering from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), but just didn't know it.

[marcus]

Marcus, if I may ask, what would you personally like to see in the next novel on Alcibiades?

Well, the major problem with Pressfield's novel was its structure, which made the whole thing desperately confusing. The chronology was impenetrable, and the characterisation was two-dimensional at most (then again, Pressfield cannot write characters of more than two dimensions; it's just that in Gates of Fire they didn't need to be more rounded for it to be an excellent book).

I would want to experience the broad picture, understanding the scope and breadth of the War; but also a properly rounded characterisation of Alcibiades. A proper investigation of the consequences of his actions!

ATB

[Paralus]

Take for instance Antiochus' disaster at Notium. I simply can’t believe that a long-time friend, and, especially, a skilful seaman, a maritime professional! would do what he did on a mere whim of arrogance. These things are not a bunch plastic toys to shuffle around on the living room carpet. You are left in command of 80 ships and who knows how many lives of valuable warriors…

Ahhh….Alcibiades. The original Rubic’s Cube: he is the face you assemble.

Let’s start with that example. Firstly Antiochus is no genius; he is no high ranking person in social class let alone officer. The Athenian navy, at this stage of the war, was not overflowing with the skill of former years. In Phormio’s day I’d guess he’d rate as a row master. Without exaggeration this navy – compared to Phormio’s day – is like Antigonus Doson’s phalanx compared to Philip’s or Alexander’s.

The source material clearly indicates that Alcibiades left (to meet Thrasybulus or collect money) and gave his pilot the command. This is scandalous. There will have been battle experienced trierachs in the fleet that should have had the command and – possibly – one or more who may have been elected strategos before. We are not informed. Either way there was no excuse for giving a “hired sailor” (friend or not) the command. To my mind it speaks volumes about Alcibiades’ insecurity. This is in the aftermath of much recrimination at Athens over his “rehabilitation” (there were law suits being prepared). It seems – to me – that Alcibiades was prepared to put the fleet at the risk of command by his pilot because he didn’t quite trust those trierachs (of the “upper class”) in his absence.

Alcibiades was a very divisive figure – in antiquity as today. There was the feeling, at the time, that he was not totally responsible for Athens’ recent fortunes. This is a theme backed by Donald Kagan who, without stretching the material, argues the same line. The seminal victories in the Hellespont in 411-409 were – largely – the result of Theramenes and Thrasybulus. Alcibiades was the “Johnny-come-lately”.

One needs to bear in mind that Alcibiades – an exile at the eastern end of Thrace for the final years of the war – was almost certainly a major source for Thucydides (book 8) – an exile at the western end at the same time. It is possibly an excuse for Thucydides’ utter lack of interest in that which decided the war: the Persian alliance with Sparta and Athens inexplicable decision to back Amorges in Caria. He likely found much of what he was told hard to swallow??

That same source is likely behind the cuckolding of Agis’ wife. There is little likelihood that this information came to Thucydides from Sparta and there is no real reason to doubt it – he was incorrigible. What goes understated are the rifts rending Sparta at this time. It is too simple to call them “traditionalists” and “medisers”. Sparta suffered from a deeper rift: to engage (over much) outside Laconia or to concern oneself with the Peleponnese. To win this war they needed Persian money. This was apparent at the outset and pursued throughout.

It is not overtly apparent whether Agis, lucky champion of Mantinea, was in the “medising” or “realist” camp. What is apparent is that he was in the aggrandising camp that Agesilaos would soon champion. Agis was at Decelea with an army and he would use it – in central Greece if not against Athens. Endius and otheres at home in Sparta might grasp anything to reign in the freedom of a king at large with an army in time of war. Alcibiades is shown urging Endius to allow him to sail to Ionia and stir up revolt before Agis achieves anything by himself. He is, from memory, described as "estranged" from Agis, the reason not being given.

Politics. All is politics.

In the end, Endius, Alcibiades and Agis were all done in by a far better political infighter possessed of towering ambitions; a Laconian of lower class who well knew power, favour and how to curry it: Lysander.

And he would find his Waterloo in the pugnacious and endlessly ambitious Agesilaos. As would Sparta.

[Phaedo]

Darn, I should have started a book on Lysander instead

Thank you so much, Paralus and Marcus. I will be mulling on this incessantly. Gah, that period is so difficult to embrace and analyse in one sweep, I know I'll be spending years on this.
I've ordered books you've all recommended. Thank you.

"Alcibiades: he is the face you assemble." wonderfully said.

[Paralus]

The period of the Ionian war saw more than simply Alcibiades stride the stage. One of the greatest Athenian patriots of all times worked hand in hand with him – indeed was instrumental in his return – Thrasybulus (son of ) Lycus (as opposed to Thraso). Like Demosthenes in the opening stanza of the war, he is much underrated as a general.

This life-long democrat was a thinker and a tactician. He well knew that were Sparta’s alliance with Persia to hold Athens was done for. The way to crack that was to bring over the chameleon who’d likely been instrumental in driving it on the Spartan agenda: Alcibiades. He would rescue Athens from the thirty and restore the democracy after the war. Before that, he would be instrumental in saving Athens from itself when the fleet at Samos was prevented from vacating the Aegean and sailing on Athens. An avid imperialist, he would meet an undeserving end near to where Cimon achieved his stunning victory at Eurymedon whilst collecting money for the funds-starved nascent Athenian Empire mark II in 387. Were he, Alcibiades and Demosthenes in control of the Sicilian expedition it will have been over before Gylippus arrived.

Possibly the greatest achievement of Alcibiades was during the “peace” of Nicias. Let the Great Pretender speak for himself (Thuc. 6.16):

Remember that I brought about a coalition of the greatest powers of the Peloponnese, without putting you to any considerable danger or expense, and made the Spartans risk all on the issue of one day’s fighting at Mantinea, and though they were victorious in the battle, they have not even yet quite recovered their confidence.

This is no vain bluster. The alliance included Argos and Mantinea (among others) and the battle was fought near to Mantinea and was the product of two years of work. The Argives and Mantineans, who routed the Spartan left, turned right – the easy option – where they set about mopping up the Sciritae, the neodamodies and Brasideans. Had they turned left and taken on the Spartan centre the result will have been quite different. One look at a map indicates that had Sparta lost here, the road south into Laconia was wide open. Leuctra in 418.

Alcibiades might well have achieved the end of the war at one stroke. Sparta’s allies, already disaffected, will have leached away and she might well have found herself in the position she did in 370. Demosthenes, back in Athens, was likely cheering hard from the sidelines.

[Phaedo]

Thank you, Paralus, for your great help and time you invested in this. I am still reading and will be re-reading your insightful posts. I very much wonder if, not to hijack Alexander's Forum, I could perhaps pm you occasionally with questions, as I have many - Thucydides being quite difficult to understand sometimes (like the razing of Panactum for example. Thuc. 5.39). I will need time to educate myself at least one tenth of your level first. Donald Kagan is on my reading agenda.

I've been in awe of this forum's great minds. You taught me how to actually exercise my brain. Craterus' lingering in Cilicia being one of many examples of such. I will never forget that.

[Phaedo]

... and would you fancy taking a role of my historical consultant please? Not to worry for the moment though, my WIP is still on Chapter 6, and I haven't even started on HIM. I am scared to even mention a hoof of his slave's donkey.

[Paralus]

As long as you don't get"shirty" with the advice!

Ask away - though am on holiday until next Saturday.

[Phaedo]

Yay! Thanks, I will.

[Paralus]

What? Get "shirty"?

[Phaedo]

Lol. I just knew you'd ask that. No, Never.
Have a Great Holiday!