Was Caspian a Sea?

[aleksandros]

Arrian says that Alexander sent for a fleet to be constructed at the Caspian Sea apart from the fleets in Babylon and Cilicia, in order to explore its shores.

Do we know anything about that attempt?

When was it discovered that the Caspian Sea is a lake?

[marcus]

When was it discovered that the Caspian Sea is a lake?

As far as I am aware, the Caspian has not yet lost its status as a "sea". However, I assume you mean when did they discover it was land-locked? It was certainly much later than Alexander's time, although I don't know when - as soon as someone travelled all the way around the edge of it, I suppose!

ATB

[agesilaos]

Patrokles circumnavigated it for King Antiochos I, so not before 280BC ; the whole history ofthe Caspian question is discussed in Tarn's second volume as an argument for dating Kleitarchos late - the argument is not as conclusive as he thinks, of course.

[aleksandros]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrocles_(geographer)

here it says that he came to the conclusion that the Caspian was a gulf or inlet, and that it was possible to enter it by sea from the Indian Ocean.

[agesilaos]

That was what was later thought but I'm pretty sure he said it was a sea about the same size as the Black Sea. Wikipedia is not infallible but then neither is my memory I'll check it out.

[marcus]

That was what was later thought but I'm pretty sure he said it was a sea about the same size as the Black Sea. Wikipedia is not infallible but then neither is my memory I'll check it out.

Just doing a Google search on "Patrocles + Caspian" I came across a preview page from:

L. Bagrow, Italians on the Caspian (Imago Mundi, Vol. 13, (1956), pp. 2-10)

It says there that Herodotus (I.202) knew that the Caspian was a separate sea, unconnected to any other - I haven't my copy of Herodotus to hand, but that's quite easy to check.

The author then goes on to say that Patrocles clearly didn't circumnavigate the Caspian, because "the conclusion that he reached was that in ..." (and then the preview comes to an end - but I assume that the point is about his assumption it could be reached from the Indian Ocean).

So if Herodotus knew it was a separate sea, surely Alexander cannot have been ignorant of the fact - or perhaps the Ancient Greeks didn't entirely trust Herodotus?

ATB

[amyntoros]

So if Herodotus knew it was a separate sea, surely Alexander cannot have been ignorant of the fact - or perhaps the Ancient Greeks didn't entirely trust Herodotus?

I found, by means of Google's Book Search, a passage in The Edinburgh Encyclopaedia by David Brewster and Richard Yeo. (1781-1868) From what they say I think that Alexander must have known the Caspian was a separate sea even though the majority of his biographers had a more imperfect knowledge.

I couldn't create a successful link to the page in question so I transcribed the relevant passage below.

We find the Caspian See noticed at a very early period by ancient writers. Herodotus, who lived in the 5th century A. C., mentions it in his works, and gives such a description of it as corresponds pretty nearly to what we know if its present state, particularly adverting to the circumstance of its having no apparent outlet, nor any visible connection with any of the great seas. "The Caspian," says he, "is a sea by itself, unconnected with any other. Its length is as much as a vessel can sail with oars in fifteen days, and its greatest breadth as much as it can sail in eight days. It is bounded," he adds, "on the west by the Caucasus, and on the east by an immense plain, which extends beyond the reach of the eye." Aristotle describes it in a manner similar to this, and with his usual precision contends, that it ought to be called a great lake, not a sea. With these writers also concurs Diodorus Siculus. But others of the ancient writers, and these commonly too of rather later date than those who have been named, have expressed themselves with respect to this sea in such a manner as would indicate, on their part, a more imperfect knowledge of it than had at periods so much earlier been attained. Strabo speaks of the Caspian as a bay that communicates with the great northern ocean, from which it issues at first by a narrow strait, and then expands into a sea, extending in breadth 300 stadia. With him Pomponius Mela agrees, and describes the strait by which the Caspian is connected with the ocean, as considerable in length, and in breadth so narrow, that it had the appearance of a river. Pliny gives a similar description of it. In the age of Justinian, this opinion concerning the communication of the Caspian Sea with the ocean was still prevalent. Some early writers, among whom is Quintus Curtius, seem to have considered the Caspian Sea to be connected with the Euxine. Arrian also, who from his residence for some time in the province of Cappadocia as governor, might certainly have obtained more accurate information, declares in one place, that the origin of the Caspian Sea was still unknown, and expresses a doubt whether it was connected with the Euxine or with the great eastern ocean which surrounds India. Ptolemy maintains its communication with the Euxine, but this by a subterraneous passage, conceiving it to be impossible, without some supposition of this sort, to account for the flowing of so many rivers into it, while on the one hand, there is no appearance of any channel out from it, nor on the other any perceptible swelling of its water, except in the spring, when it is obviously occasioned only by the melting of the snow at that season. Indeed it has in all ages been found a problem of great difficulty to furnish any tolerable solution of the phenomena connected with the sea in question, both in respect to the circumstance just alluded to, and also as it appears in the character of a large sheet of water, possessing the distinguishing properties of sea-water, but dissevered and insulated completely, so far, at least, as is perceptible to any human eye, from all connection with the other portions of the widely extended fluid.

(And I thought that I use too many commas in a sentence! )

Best regards,

[marcus]

(And I thought that I use too many commas in a sentence! )

So long as the commas appear in logical places, it doesn't matter how many you insert in a sentence; although it might be a bit strange to have six commas in a ten word sentence ...

ATB

[agesilaos]

Mea culpa; yes, it seems Patrocles did not circumnavigate the Caspian and confused the mouth of the Volga with an outlet to the Ocean. His remained the expert view as no one else seems to have explored it; Pompey was given Patrocles' report when he requested information some two hundred years later.

Herodotos I 203 knows it is a lake as does Aristotle Meteorologica II 1 10 and Polycleitos in Strabo but this knowledge was superceded by Patrocles' error.

[aleksandros]

So when Alexander reached Caspian he thought it was a lake. And the fleet he ordered to be built there, was to explore it and make the way easier for a future campaign against the scythians.?

[marcus]

So when Alexander reached Caspian he thought it was a lake. And the fleet he ordered to be built there, was to explore it and make the way easier for a future campaign against the scythians.?

One assumes so, yes.

Unless he also knew that it was the place that produces the best caviar, and wanted his fleet to go roe fishing ...

ATB

[aleksandros]

i am just saying cause almost every documentary when it comes to Caspian goes like 'the soldiers thought the sea was a part of the Ocean'.

[agesilaos]

Aristotle thought it was a lake but it may have suited Alexander's aims to have it as an inlet after all that means he has reached the Ocean, just as we are told by Erastosthenes, in Strabo, that Alexander's men thought the Hindu Kush the Caucasus and called the Oxus the Tanais all so they could claim that the whole of Asia had been conquered. Herakleides, who was to lead the expedition never did, the mission was cancelled, it is usually said due to Alexander's death but surely there were years in which to do it so perhaps Alexander chose not to settle the matter to help his image as the ruler of the whole of Asia.