I thought I would raise a question regarding what we really know about Alexander. I Would say apart from the historical things battles and events. I would argue we know nothing about Alexanders persona at all. We only have our own interpretations.
I say this having just sat through Bradd Pitts movie about Jesse James. In the movie we are led to believe that Jeese James was a tormented depressed soul who was nothing more than a back shooter and blood thirsty bandit who believed in his own fame and bottom line he was so down on himself that he even wanted the Guy Ford to gun him down.
Ok I thought and maybe so. Then I thought moods conversations Jesse James frame of mind. Ok very different from the Ideal hero we maybe believe. Jesse James the heroic Gunfighter who stole from the Rich to give to the poor. I dont doubt these cowboys outlaws. Jesse James. Dick Turpin, Billy The Kidd were nothingmore than ruthless killers.
The problem I maybe have is where do these stories of what was said and what maybe went through someones mind comes from. Jesse James was relatively not long ago and yet the info is still sketchy. So how on earth can we assume the mind and converastions of Alexander The great nearly 3000 years ago.
We can hardly say what Alexander said to Philip what anyone else thought etc. Then I asked what makes a hero. Mother Terresa and and the people who do good should be the real heroes. But I guess out Phsyche of a hero is a handsome warrior etc with flashing blades or fast guns.
I guess there are no such heroes in reality and what we have about Alexander is maybe an ideal. As I said befor if we ever got to meet Alexander in real life would we even like the guy.
Kenny
What can we Be Sure Of?
Moderator: pothos moderators
Kenny, I reconcile this with the understanding that, 24 centuries ago, "heroic" meant something much different than the first thing that pops in our minds nowadays.
"Heroic" back then was a matter of scope more than morality. Alexander wasn't called "the Great" because he was agreeable with everyone--he earned that title by fighting his way to India and back, and laying claim pretty much everything inbetween.
Where heroes of the sort you describe are concerned, I think you could find them if you look hard enough.
You also asked if you would have liked Alexander had you met him. I think a fair answer to this would be "depending on the time and place". I think Alexander would be an excellent person to converse and associate with in, say, Egypt during the laying out of Alexandria and the games held in honor of his coronation. Conversely, I think he would be someone I would tread very carefully around during the Afghan expeditions or following the army's ultimatum in India.
But you know what, Jason? I could say the same thing about anyone who happened to be in command of tens of thousands of crack killers and in possession of nigh-limitless wealth.
Ultimately, can we truly know what was going through Alexander's cranium? No, I don't believe so. Very little survives from his time... none of it in its original form. That which has reached across the millenia to us is what Alexander or related parties wanted us to think about him.
"Heroic" back then was a matter of scope more than morality. Alexander wasn't called "the Great" because he was agreeable with everyone--he earned that title by fighting his way to India and back, and laying claim pretty much everything inbetween.
Where heroes of the sort you describe are concerned, I think you could find them if you look hard enough.
You also asked if you would have liked Alexander had you met him. I think a fair answer to this would be "depending on the time and place". I think Alexander would be an excellent person to converse and associate with in, say, Egypt during the laying out of Alexandria and the games held in honor of his coronation. Conversely, I think he would be someone I would tread very carefully around during the Afghan expeditions or following the army's ultimatum in India.
But you know what, Jason? I could say the same thing about anyone who happened to be in command of tens of thousands of crack killers and in possession of nigh-limitless wealth.
Ultimately, can we truly know what was going through Alexander's cranium? No, I don't believe so. Very little survives from his time... none of it in its original form. That which has reached across the millenia to us is what Alexander or related parties wanted us to think about him.
Re: What can we Be Sure Of?
I have to say that I have never been any illusion about these characters (except, maybe, Dick Turpin). I don't think I've ever thought of James as being some sort of Western Robin Hood; and certainly Billy the Kid must have had something wrong with him!jasonxx wrote:Jesse James the heroic Gunfighter who stole from the Rich to give to the poor. I dont doubt these cowboys outlaws. Jesse James. Dick Turpin, Billy The Kidd were nothingmore than ruthless killers.
I must have been reading the wrong comics!
ATB
Hello,
interesting question Kenny,
I guess you are right.Mainly what we know about Alexander the man and his persona is very limited.
I was thinking just the other day/ what a difficult task it must be to actually sit down and write some new insight on the man or his life because somewhere someone will probably already have thought of it before.
I suppose his values were heavily borrowed from the Iliad' you know his moral code and all that obviously mostly with regards to Achilles/ having said that, i suppose as you say, this is just another hypothesis because nowhere is it stated that Alexander was directly acting on what he had read in the iliad. all we can do is guess and try to make the guess as good as we can make itl
well it is late,
i bid thee good night,
atb
Dean
interesting question Kenny,
I guess you are right.Mainly what we know about Alexander the man and his persona is very limited.
I was thinking just the other day/ what a difficult task it must be to actually sit down and write some new insight on the man or his life because somewhere someone will probably already have thought of it before.
I suppose his values were heavily borrowed from the Iliad' you know his moral code and all that obviously mostly with regards to Achilles/ having said that, i suppose as you say, this is just another hypothesis because nowhere is it stated that Alexander was directly acting on what he had read in the iliad. all we can do is guess and try to make the guess as good as we can make itl
well it is late,
i bid thee good night,
atb
Dean
carpe diem
And more- I think the really valuable source could be Alexander's own diary. Any other- even contemporary accounts (Ptolemy, Nearchus etc.) were written from other point of view- to show King's attitude towards them, to praise themselves, to show their shine... So they could add or drop something- not so important or not so comfortable for them. You remember Lysimachus and amazon queen?Phoebus wrote:Ultimately, can we truly know what was going through Alexander's cranium? No, I don't believe so. Very little survives from his time... none of it in its original form. That which has reached across the millenia to us is what Alexander or related parties wanted us to think about him.
Plutarch (P 46.2): "... the story is told that many years afterwards Onesicritus was reading aloud to Lysimachus, who was now king, the fourth book of his history, in which was the tale of the Amazon, at which Lysimachus smiled gently and said: 'And where was I at the time?'"
-
jasonxx
Marcus... Im pretty much with you all the way regarding these heroes. But It never stops me enjoying the idealistic movies or interpretations of these charcters. I still love the John wayne heroes. British Tv did a documentary about Dick Trpin whe was basically a cold blooded Chancer. Not averse to shooting any one in the Back. Maybe the Saturday Evening Series about Dich Turpin jogs your memory.
I maybe in the mnority here. I class myself as honest and noble etc, But were I to have got drawn into a gunfight no way would I face up. I guess id be a bck shooter.... Ive got a saying. "The Graveyards are Full Of dead Heroes" I would only gladly lay my life down for my wife and family.
But it draws me to a pertinant point about so called Phsco Analasist of Alexander. How can we even beging to work out his mind. Wether he believed in the Illiad etc etc. What we do know he was a man of his time born and bread into a world of war killing and violence. Other wise he could have taken a seat next to Diogenese looking for the honest man. Its fair top say none would really find such a person amongst the Time of ancients.
Kenny
I maybe in the mnority here. I class myself as honest and noble etc, But were I to have got drawn into a gunfight no way would I face up. I guess id be a bck shooter.... Ive got a saying. "The Graveyards are Full Of dead Heroes" I would only gladly lay my life down for my wife and family.
But it draws me to a pertinant point about so called Phsco Analasist of Alexander. How can we even beging to work out his mind. Wether he believed in the Illiad etc etc. What we do know he was a man of his time born and bread into a world of war killing and violence. Other wise he could have taken a seat next to Diogenese looking for the honest man. Its fair top say none would really find such a person amongst the Time of ancients.
Kenny
Three cheers for Western outlaws ...
Wouldn't argue with you there, Kenny! There have been loads of documentaries rubbishing Wyatt Earp, but Tombstone is still one of my favourite Westerns. And I've always rather liked Young Guns - although, to be fair, they didn't exactly portray Billy the Kid in an idealistic way in that movie.jasonxx wrote:Marcus... Im pretty much with you all the way regarding these heroes. But It never stops me enjoying the idealistic movies or interpretations of these charcters. I still love the John wayne heroes.
ATB