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penelope

HI EVERYONE

Post by penelope »

Hi!
I just wanted to say how excited I was to find such a forum. I haven't looked around much yet, but I can see there are people here who actually know what they are talking about. I have also seen a lot of sense of humor about it, so I know I am in a good place :D .

As for Alexander, what can I say, I've been fascinated since my school days, but I don't know what to think of him sometimes. It's good to know there are people out there who neither treat him as a god, nor dismiss him as a murderer. If there is one man's life that can make you think A LOT, that's Alexander. That's good enough for me!

Having said that, I must confess: I have the cold rational ability to judge him but at the same time (being a Greek perhaps) I have a true affection for him and the rest of the bunch! Is anybody else equally confused or is it just me? :? :wink:

Penelope
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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

Hi Penelope, and welcome. It's not just you. I think most people in this forum, Greeks and non Greeks, think in the same way.
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Post by Paralus »

Welcome Penelope.

Confused? No. The trick is to get beyond the overlays: heroic; righteous visitor of revenge; Hellenic cultural ambassador-at-large; mongrel murderer; Hitler or Macedonian Pol Pot.

He marched, he conquered and subjugated and he did it all with a sometimes ethereal panache and brilliance. But it was military brilliance.

The crashing and grinding of Diadoch tectonic plates of ambition after his death testify to his utter failure to grasp what his father had always known: the absolute need for an assured succession.

Had Alexander viewed begetting a legitimate and unchallenged heir the same way as he did the Arabs (or any other people yet to submit) the empire will have suffered a surfeit of heirs.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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penelope

Post by penelope »

Hi,and thanks for the answer.

Maybe it's not so much Alexander's personality and actions that confuse us. Maybe it's everything others have said about him. How he has been "untouchable" for so long that if you try to really look at his life (out of love) people may call you unpatriotic or petty or something. Try asking questions about Hephaestion and see what you'll get.

On the other hand there have always been voices calling him a murderer, a lunatic etc, and if you defend him you are a fascist or whatever. You get my point.

My opinion is that what the ancients (and Alexander himself) believed, is correct: we should look to other peoples' life as an example for what to imitate or to avoid. Alexander is perfect for that, but also everybody else around him: mother, father, best friend, comrades in arms etc. The study of his life leads us to look at their lives as well, not to mention his enemies. He also makes us look at the Iliad again, doesn't he? It's interesting how he seemed to stick to the Iliad rather than the Odyssey since they say that until you do that you aren't fully mature yet. Could it be that for all the sex and war and rock' n 'roll he never really grew up?

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Post by Paralus »

penelope wrote: Could it be that for all the sex and war and rock' n 'roll he never really grew up?
Err.......visions of Alexander riding Beucephalus, Manfred Manblaring from the equine stereo, charging the Persians at Gaugamela come to mind.

Then again, after all the dirty work was done, perhaps - at Opis - the soundtrack featured John Lennon?
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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penelope

Post by penelope »

:)
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Post by amyntoros »

penelope wrote:It's interesting how he seemed to stick to the Iliad rather than the Odyssey since they say that until you do that you aren't fully mature yet. Could it be that for all the sex and war and rock' n 'roll he never really grew up?
Funny you should say this because for the longest time I have had the sense that neither Alexander nor his elite "warriors" were really "grown up" – at least not as WE see "maturity" today. They seem so similar to the perennial teenage boys gathered in the urban playgrounds – doing what they want, taking what they want, making their own rules and disregarding any attempt by society to impose rules upon them. There's demonstrable extreme generosity to friends and (sometimes) extreme cruelty to perceived enemies. They're interested only in the here and now and what position in the hierarchy they can achieve with little consideration for what effect they may have on "outsiders" except inasmuch as it affects themselves. And any future plans they have at this point in time are, in reality, more of the same. Today, of course, we expect our youth to work only towards becoming productive, mature individuals and good contributing members to the established general community. Yes, it was much the same in ancient times in the communities such as Athens. Conquest, however, takes men out of that environment and allows them free reign to impose their will upon others. They, in essence, shape themselves without any need to conform. They make their own rules and expect (by means of might) others to live by them. They don't have to "grow up" and conform in any sense because that is an expectation normally forced upon them by others. Who is there to do that to a conqueror and his army?


Look how people sometimes propose an if Alexander lived today scenario.” Yet - outside of him being born the ruler of some small and prosperous country - it would be impossible for him to function as the same individual within the constraints of western society. But, as with Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliette becoming West Side Story, you could transform Alexander's story to the youthful urban gang environment and - more than that - make it work!

I imagine I might have offended some members with the above, but it is not my intent. I should point out once again that those were different times culturally and what we think of as mature behaviour today doesn't translate to ancient society. Equating the behavior with some aspects of modern youth culture doesn't mean that I think Alexander and his cronies were immature - just that they can be perceived that way according to today's societal rules. And this could be another reason for Alexander's popularity, especially amongst the younger crowd. Let's face it, we admire success amongst the young today even when (or perhaps because) they may reach that success outside of the establishment. (And this while the parents amongst us are likely hoping that our own children will go to college, get good jobs, raise families of their own, etc.) So, from a modern viewpoint, seeing Alexander and his Friends as eternal youths in all aspects isn't meant to be an insult. Maturity in the contemporary sense isn't always what it's cracked up to be anyway! :lol:

Best regards,
Amyntoros

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penelope

Post by penelope »

Why would anybody be offended, amyntoros?

I generally agree with you when you say that today an Alexander would have been impossible. See what we think of today's conquerers (I won't even go there). And rightly so. Alexander's world, not ours.
But the great difference, I believe, would be in his motivations.

Alexander, the real one, truly chased (and got) eternal glory. That was his deepest ideal: hysterofemia. Pretty much what everybody wanted those days. Their name to live forever. That's why he kept comparing himself to Achilles, that's why he was snapping each time somebody compared him to his dad. It was a competition, immature but very much within the spirit of the age, not outside of the establishment as you say. Up to a point he did conform to his upbringing and education. When he stopped doing that it was noticed, criticized.

Today he would have the same personality, perhaps, but he would be looking to excel in something else. I imagine him a businessman rather than in a youthful gang environment. It's clear that acceptance was important to him. Who is considered successful in our times? That's who he'd be, probably bending every rule in the way. Of course nobody will ever know since in history there are no if's.

These are of course my opinions and since I am neither a psychologist nor a historian... :oops:
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Post by Paralus »

Alexander and his "cronies" had indeed grown up. It is a matter of what society they grew up in.

The Athenian city-state statesmen and generals showed little proclivity to be recognised as Achilles or much of any other hero. Demosthenes, the fifth century strategic mind of the immediate post-Periclean period, strikes me as a bloke who'd love his wine as much as he'd enjoy sticking it to the Spartans. The Spartans certainly thought so. That he wished to become a mythic hero does not readily come to mind.

Alexander and his marshals grew up in an entirely different place. They came to maturity in a "feudal", nobility-centred warrior society. This, I'd suggest, was not an environment designed to foster humanitarian individuals with a philanthropic view of their place in the wider world. Quite the opposite.

Alexander, his father Philip and - a fortiori - the Diadochoi were grasping, aggrandising individuals who saw the world as something to be owned and made use of. Lands, the revenues they generated and the populations that would serve the needs of that rewarded nobility are what drove them. This was in full flower, after the "silverback" (Alexander) of the troupe departed, in the wars of the Diadochoi. All was aimed at winning and controlling as much of what was availble at any time. Any and all means - including the confected and over-used "freedom of the Greeks" - were utilised. Only the temporary lack of manpower and or funds or the inability to match alliances formed against one or the other called temporary halts.

They did not suddenly learn this behaviour on Alexander's death I suspect.
Paralus
Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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