A Hephaistion Quiz!

[karen]

I'm not going to lie to you; it's difficult for me to find a "favorite" character from the movie. I have to find said characters sympathetic, if not likeable, to begin with.

Well -- though this really belongs to another thread -- I think that's absolutely key to why the movie didn't do better in North America.

In that sense, Phillip (didn't Kilmer do a terrific job with him?) appeals somewhat--I found his cave scene with young Alexander moving. In those moments, I felt as if Stone did a very good job of almost absolving him of the flaws and crimes he commits on screen--the evidence of what he likely had gone through as a young man giving reason (if not excuse) for his own conduct.

I didn't like the cave scene that much for the usual reason -- too many cheesy lines -- but Kilmer did do a pretty good Philip. I thought his best was the banquet scene.

I also liked Cleitus, played well, IMHO, by Gary Stretch.

Definitely likeable, but as with so many of the others, you see him only for a couple of scenes.

Hephaistion was, I hate to say, disappointing to me. Off of the battlefield depictions, I found Leto less assertive than I thought his character should have been... and more melodramatic than dramatic. Perhaps Hephaestion was not a "great" commander (but then, how often is the quality of the various commanders qualified), and perhaps he didn't enjoy the respect of his fellows... But events like his willingness to cross blades with Craterus (IIRC) hint to me that the historical counterpart carried himself somewhat more strongly.

I agree with this totally. He seemed too insecure in the movie... as if he didn't trust Alexander's love... and not really close to Alexander, really, either. I mean, whatever side you're on re their sexuality, two guys who've been inseparable since childhood can finish off each other's sentences, know each other's thoughts, communicate worlds of meaning just with an exchanged look, have all kinds of in-jokes that are just between the two of them, etc. You don't see that between Colin Farrell & Jared Leto. There's Alexander saying, "some say I'm divine, some say I'm weak... which do you think?" As if he wouldn't already know Hephaistion's opinion. I think the real Hephaistion would have answered, "Weak. Well, for the love of Zeus, Al, what do you expect me to answer? Snap out of it."

Oh, and incidentally, the meme spread by Heckel that Hephaistion wasn't very bright I think is entirely unjust, and I would think this even if Hephaistion had never been given any responsibility, just on one piece of evidence: Alexander's wanting him close, always. Brilliant people just don't take stupid people as best friends or lovers, because they find them too boring.

Warmly,
Karen

[marcus]

Oh, and incidentally, the meme spread by Heckel that Hephaistion wasn't very bright I think is entirely unjust, and I would think this even if Hephaistion had never been given any responsibility, just on one piece of evidence: Alexander's wanting him close, always. Brilliant people just don't take stupid people as best friends or lovers, because they find them too boring.

I'd have to check, but I don't think that Heckel has ever intimated that Hephaistion was not very bright. Not particularly well-liked, definitely; not a gifted commander, for sure; but I don't recall H. ever suggesting he was dim.

Paul Cartledge did suggest it strongly, though - IIRC his term was "dumb brute". While my opinion about Hephaistion is, I believe, well known to Pothosians, that is indeed an unfair description. Well, he might have been a "brute", in the same way that all the other Macedonians were probably "brutes"; but dumb, no ...

As far as favourite characters are concerned: in the movie - Philip and Olympias, and I agree with what's been said about Krateros and Kleitos, too. In history, Krateros and Ptolemy get my vote.

ATB

[Phoebus]

Well -- though this really belongs to another thread -- I think that's absolutely key to why the movie didn't do better in North America.

I didn't quite mean it in that context, but... fair enough.

I didn't like the cave scene that much for the usual reason -- too many cheesy lines -- but Kilmer did do a pretty good Philip. I thought his best was the banquet scene.

Was it cheesy? In a sense... yes. I guess I can ignore cheesiness if the actor can make me believe that he believes in the lines he's spouting.

Definitely likeable, but as with so many of the others, you see him only for a couple of scenes.

A shame, eh?

I mean, whatever side you're on re their sexuality, two guys who've been inseparable since childhood can finish off each other's sentences, know each other's thoughts, communicate worlds of meaning just with an exchanged look, have all kinds of in-jokes that are just between the two of them, etc. You don't see that between Colin Farrell & Jared Leto.

Bam! You nailed it, and in a way I'd been struggling to put in words for some time now. Exactly!

Oh, and incidentally, the meme spread by Heckel that Hephaistion wasn't very bright I think is entirely unjust, and I would think this even if Hephaistion had never been given any responsibility, just on one piece of evidence: Alexander's wanting him close, always. Brilliant people just don't take stupid people as best friends or lovers, because they find them too boring.

And Alexander certainly doesn't strike me as the sort of guy that would put tens of thousands of soldiers in a command for all intents and purposes independent of his tactical control under the charge of someone whose acumen he didn't place trust in.

Good words Karen.

Cheers,
P.

[Fiona]

As long as "favourite" doesn't have to mean "most likable" -- Olympias, hands down. Especially if it's Alexander Revisited we're talking about, because she was more fleshed out. Even though she had to fight through the handicaps of being too young, having a lot of poorly-written lines and being required to deliver them in an accent like Natasha in "Rocky and Bullwinkle," Angelina Jolie was terrific as Alexander's super-intense mom. Favourite moment: when she whacks him across the face and says "You're a king! Act like one!"

In fact, come to think of it.... she's the only character in the whole movie who really seems strong enough to be an ancient Makedonian monarch. Nerves of steel, and she never makes even the slightest slip.

A strong character, indeed - and in history, too, it seems as if a woman had to be immensely strong even to make it into the history books. Only she and Gorgo leap to mind. Mental strength and strength of character wouldn't have made her a Macedonian monarch, though, would it - not without the physical strength to actually fight. I'm sure she'd have had the courage to do it, though.
I agree that Angelie Jolie was terrific. So ruthless and matter-of fact, yet she brought out that she really did believe she was the only one who knew what was best for Alexander, that she loved him almost beyond reason.

Most likable imo was Krateros, for all he only got one little scene, giving a speech that in reality was given by Koinos. Followed closely by Bagoas, but maybe that's because I enjoyed looking at him so much...

Bagoas? I liked him better in the Theatrical version, where we could just look at him and didn't have to listen to him...
Fiona

[Fiona]

How about Leonnatos?

He seems to have been bold and larger-than-life--unafraid to laugh at his king's attempts at proskynesis, bringing with him caravans' worth sand/dust for wrestling...

He certainly earned his office of Somatophylax. When Alexander was fighting for his life, alone, inside the citadel of the Mallians, he showed great courage by jumping in to save his king. Was it his duty to do so? Sure. But there are many instances in history where men in similar positions stood back.

What little we see of him seems attractive, doesn't it? The movie Leonnatus was just strong and silent, shame there wasn't time to develop more of the characters. Going back to history, though, do we know what became of Leonnatus? I have a feeling he died in battle, didn't he, not long into the wars of the successors? Not sure if I've read that or imagined it.
Fiona

[Fiona]

I meant from history:) And there my fav is Philotas (after Alexander, of course)- well, no doubt, I wouldn't be happy to know him by person (although- who knows:)?) Last- I have done my course project on him (i'm doing my MA in history).
As concerns movie- I'm sure Stone has not chosen best actors:( I could agree with Philip (Kilmer), but others...

Philotas? Interesting choice - is that because you like the 'bad guy', or do you feel sorry for him?
If you've been doing your project on him, I can see why you might get attached to him, and at least there's plenty of material to work on.
What did you think of Joseph Morgan's Philotas? I thought that in the movie, the character came across as quite sympathetic - genuinely concerned and frustrated, more than over-inflated ego.
D'you think it's true that Philotas was more Amyntas' friend than Alexander's, (when they were young, I mean) and that's why he was never quite trusted?
Fiona

[karen]

I'd have to check, but I don't think that Heckel has ever intimated that Hephaistion was not very bright. Not particularly well-liked, definitely; not a gifted commander, for sure; but I don't recall H. ever suggesting he was dim.

Pardon me -- -- having checked, I am reminded: it was Peter Green. His potted description of Hephaistion: "Tall, handsome, spoilt, spiteful, overbearing and fundamentally stupid".

[Fiona]

I agree with this totally. He seemed too insecure in the movie... as if he didn't trust Alexander's love... and not really close to Alexander, really, either. I mean, whatever side you're on re their sexuality, two guys who've been inseparable since childhood can finish off each other's sentences, know each other's thoughts, communicate worlds of meaning just with an exchanged look, have all kinds of in-jokes that are just between the two of them, etc. You don't see that between Colin Farrell & Jared Leto. There's Alexander saying, "some say I'm divine, some say I'm weak... which do you think?" As if he wouldn't already know Hephaistion's opinion. I think the real Hephaistion would have answered, "Weak. Well, for the love of Zeus, Al, what do you expect me to answer? Snap out of it."

I think one of the problems was the script, in that OS used nearly all their private conversations to look at the wider picture. It showed that Alexander would talk things over with Hephaistion, but it also leant a faint and unnatural air of formality to their talks.
I agree with you so much that guys who've been friends so long can communicate worlds of meaning with just an exchanged look, etc, but I think we do see exactly that in the scene where Alexander has just told Stateira that her family will be his family. Alexander and Hephaistion look at each other, they don't speak, but you can see that Alexander is saying "Have I done the right thing?" and Hephaistion gives a little nod, and his eyes are saying, "Yes - it'll cost you - but yes."
Then there's Philip's wedding scene. At the moment of Attalus' insult, when response is required, Alexander and Hephaistion don't even need to look at each other, they leap up in exactly the same way at exactly the same moment, showing how they think and act as one.
Then there's the scene when Hephaistion comes into the room when Alexander is waiting for Roxane to appear. The looks they share then show that they each know exactly what the other is thinking.
It would have been nice to see even more of this kind of thing, but I think that it is there.
Fiona

[Semiramis]

I'm not sure this "stupid" label is fair on Hephaistion. It's likely that he wasn't as great a battle commander as Craterus or Cleitus. But what about the fact that he was often in charge of logistics? Logistics doesn't get the glory but it's absolutely vital for any military operation. Especially ones like Alexander's that span across such vast areas. You wouldn't entrust it to a "fundamentally stupid" guy.

Then there's his appointment as Chilliarch. Looking at Achaemenid history, especially the period just before Alexander's succession, the chilliarch was sometimes even more powerful than the great king himself. Bagoas the eunuch (not the dancing one) was making and breaking kings almost at will. Not a position for a "dumb brute". Especially during the changing times after Alexander's takeover.

What about Plutarch's assertion that Alexander would use Hephaistion to deal with the Persians and Craterus with the Greeks? Surely, the degree of diplomatic skill would require a fine intellect?

Hephaistion apparently exchanged letters with Aristotle and Xenocrates. I've mentioned Cartledge's "Now for the other dumb brute in Alexander's life" line in this forum before. To use that line to segue from Bucephalas to Hephaistion strikes me as quite unfair.

[Phoebus]

What little we see of him seems attractive, doesn't it? The movie Leonnatus was just strong and silent, shame there wasn't time to develop more of the characters. Going back to history, though, do we know what became of Leonnatus? I have a feeling he died in battle, didn't he, not long into the wars of the successors? Not sure if I've read that or imagined it.
Fiona

He died in battle in Hellas, during the (successful) action to relieve Antipater from Lamia.

[Sandra]

I meant from history:) And there my fav is Philotas (after Alexander, of course)- well, no doubt, I wouldn't be happy to know him by person (although- who knows:)?) Last- I have done my course project on him (i'm doing my MA in history).
As concerns movie- I'm sure Stone has not chosen best actors:( I could agree with Philip (Kilmer), but others...

Philotas? Interesting choice - is that because you like the 'bad guy', or do you feel sorry for him?
If you've been doing your project on him, I can see why you might get attached to him, and at least there's plenty of material to work on.
What did you think of Joseph Morgan's Philotas? I thought that in the movie, the character came across as quite sympathetic - genuinely concerned and frustrated, more than over-inflated ego.
D'you think it's true that Philotas was more Amyntas' friend than Alexander's, (when they were young, I mean) and that's why he was never quite trusted?
Fiona

No, I am not "bad guy" lover and not so very sorry for him, although this plays some part too. Ok, he was arrogant and quite selfish in some aspects. But I like him because of his loyalty to old traditions and family; for bravery. He was part of Old guard, who doesn't denied his allegiances to old traditons and Greek manners; one of leaders of aristocrats in army. Concerned about state, home, family and their safety, some conservativism. This was where he was dangerous to Alexander. And I've opinion that it was conspiracy against Philotas.

It would be quite interesting to know what would happen if he would be there when Alexander introduced proskynesis...(To say at once- I like Leonnatus as well- for his bravery)

Joseph Morgan- my first impression on him was very bad. And i have never thought about him as fair-haired... Never. So I haven't accepted him as Philotas for now.

On my opinion on Philotas and Amynta- yes, I agree they were friends, but Philotas was one of those educated with Aristotle and there is Pixodarus affair as well... I doubt Philip would involve in such situation someone who is close friend of Amyntas. So- I am not sure, he was closer friend to Amynta than Alexander.

[marcus]

but Philotas was one of those educated with Aristotle and there is Pixodarus affair as well... I doubt Philip would involve in such situation someone who is close friend of Amyntas. So- I am not sure, he was closer friend to Amynta than Alexander.

I don't think we have any evidence that Philotas was educated by Aristotle with Alexander. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, none of the sources tell us who was educated with Alexander - we can only make some assumptions and (very reasonable) guesses. But it has been suggested that Philotas wasn't in Alexander's "class", being a few years older - that's where the whole point about his probably being closer to Amyntas comes about.

Anyway, I don't see what Amyntas has to do with Philip's taking Philotas along when he confronts Alexander over Pixodarus. Two possibilities have always been suggested: first, that it was Philotas who gave the game away to Philip, in which case Philip wanted Philotas there to prevent Alexander from trying to lie his way out of it; and second, that Philotas was taken along to remind Alexander how a dutiful son should behave. Whether or not Philotas was a friend of Amyntas has nothing to do with it.

ATB

[Fiona]

He died in battle in Hellas, during the (successful) action to relieve Antipater from Lamia.

Thanks, Phoebus. So he was one of the - surprisngly few, isn't it? - named characters to make it home. Must read some more about these years. I've read Plutarch on Demetrius, but that leaves a big gap. I could do with a good book about the Successors - can you recommend one?
Fiona

[Fiona]

I'm not sure this "stupid" label is fair on Hephaistion. It's likely that he wasn't as great a battle commander as Craterus or Cleitus. But what about the fact that he was often in charge of logistics? Logistics doesn't get the glory but it's absolutely vital for any military operation. Especially ones like Alexander's that span across such vast areas. You wouldn't entrust it to a "fundamentally stupid" guy.

I agree with you, but I'd take it even further. I think it's a bit of a myth, this idea that Hephaistion was often in charge of logistics. IIRC, there's only one occasion when he's mentioned in connection with supplies, as compared to many more when he's mentioned in connection with fighting, leading, besieging, etc. If you were thinking of the bridging operations, though, then I can see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't call that logistics - that's engineering, quite a different thing, but very good proof in itself that he wasn't stupid.

Then there's his appointment as Chilliarch. Looking at Achaemenid history, especially the period just before Alexander's succession, the chilliarch was sometimes even more powerful than the great king himself. Bagoas the eunuch (not the dancing one) was making and breaking kings almost at will. Not a position for a "dumb brute". Especially during the changing times after Alexander's takeover.

Absolutely, and there's Karen's point too about brilliant people being bored by stupid people. Alexander wasn't stupid, ergo, Hephaistion wasn't stupid.

What about Plutarch's assertion that Alexander would use Hephaistion to deal with the Persians and Craterus with the Greeks? Surely, the degree of diplomatic skill would require a fine intellect?

Hephaistion apparently exchanged letters with Aristotle and Xenocrates. I've mentioned Cartledge's "Now for the other dumb brute in Alexander's life" line in this forum before. To use that line to segue from Bucephalas to Hephaistion strikes me as quite unfair.

For Peter Green to call him 'fundamentally stupid' after all this evidence, makes me wonder what evidence he can possibly produce to justify the statement.
In defence of Paul Cartledge, though, I am very sure he was using 'dumb' in its literal, UK English sense of 'silent' - in the UK, the word carries no connotations of stupidity, as it does in the US.
I was lucky enough to have the chance to meet Paul Cartledge earlier this year, with some friends, and we immediately challenged him about this. "The man who called Hephaistion 'dumb'!" we said. Quick as a flash, he countered with, "That's not what I said" and indeed, he didn't - he said he was tempted to say it, meaning it struck him as an irresistible chance to make a joke, and that was how he intended it to be read. For the record, he was great fun, and he admitted that Hephaistion was not dumb (or stupid).
Fiona

[marcus]

Fiona, I must take issue with a couple of things.

Absolutely, and there's Karen's point too about brilliant people being bored by stupid people. Alexander wasn't stupid, ergo, Hephaistion wasn't stupid.

Way too simplistic. While what Karen said was fair enough as a generalisation, to use it as "proof" that Hephaistion wasn't stupid takes no account of the myriad convolutions of character and personality. That won't wash, I'm afraid.

(Not that Hephaistion was stupid - but you can't use that as an argument.)

In defence of Paul Cartledge, though, I am very sure he was using 'dumb' in its literal, UK English sense of 'silent' - in the UK, the word carries no connotations of stupidity, as it does in the US.

Oh yes it most absolutely does.

ATB