Athens, the forgotten savior

[Yauna]

It´s incredible that we think of Sparta as the greek city that stopped Persia conquering west, isn´t it?

Athens fighted almost alone against Darius I in Marathon, and was the main force in Salamis and Platae.

Despite of this almost all people think that was Sparta because of the famous and useless battle of Termophilae. All that wanted lacedemonians was surrender Greece to Persians and refuging in Peloponnese, to conserve his home, ridiculous. Besides this, Sparta became afterwars a Persian customer, taking his gold in change of making trouble to Athens and the other greeks, and so relieving Persia from the greek threat.Instead of this Athens continued war against persians till it was possible.

We all have forgotten that but Alexander knew it and was faithfull to Athens because of this and forgived the city despite it was his main enemy in Greece.

[jasonxx]

I think your reasoning is pretty accurate. Indeed the athenians with Alies took Marathon.Irespective they were supposed to be inferior to the Spartan warriors.

I guess Thermopalae does the Spartans more favours than they actually deserve and id say were more soses in the proverbial trough with Persian gold than its northern neighbours. I think it fare to say had the entire Spartan Greek coalition fought together in the beggining the Xerxes invasion would never have got to looting Athens at all.

Its fare to say nearly all Hoplite Persian encounters came out with Hoplite on top. I cant think if ever the Persians actually did defeat a Greek army. And indeed the best soldiers the Persian Emperors had were actually Greek mercenaries.

MAKES U MAYBE THINK ANY gREEK mACEDONIAN cOMMANDER WITH aLEXANDERS ARMY COULD IN ACTUAL FACT HAVE Taken out the Persian Empire?

Kenny

[Callisto]

Despite of this almost all people think that was Sparta because of the famous and useless battle of Termophilae. All that wanted lacedemonians was surrender Greece to Persians and refuging in Peloponnese, to conserve his home, ridiculous. Besides this, Sparta became afterwars a Persian customer, taking his gold in change of making trouble to Athens and the other greeks, and so relieving Persia from the greek threat.Instead of this Athens continued war against persians till it was possible.

We all have forgotten that but Alexander knew it and was faithfull to Athens because of this and forgived the city despite it was his main enemy in Greece.

In reality you are presenting half-truths, inaccurate assumptions, just to meet your point. On the contrary, Athens like other greek city-states had their great share in receiving Persian gold.

If you had read ie the events leading to the so-called Corinthian war, you would have known Agesilaus and Spartans had attempted somehow in a minor level, to do what Alexander and Macedonians did later but unfortunately they faced the same trouble from other greek city-states.

Actually they used the same pretext - liberation of Ionian Greeks from Persians- in order to invade Asia Minor . Maybe he could have achieved it if Persian gold again havent caused several risings against Spartan hegemony in the mainland of Greece, among them the Atheneans.

Just a small part from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_War

"Thebes, Corinth, and Athens also refused to participate in a Spartan expedition to Ionia in 398 BC, with the Thebans going so far as to disrupt a sacrifice that the Spartan king Agesilaus attempted to perform in their territory before his departure.[5] Despite the absence of these states, Agesilaus campaigned effectively against the Persians in Lydia, advancing as far inland as Sardis. The satrap Tissaphernes was executed for his failure to contain Agesilaus, and his replacement, Tithraustes, bribed the Spartans to move north, into the satrapy of Pharnabazus. Agesilaus did so, but simultaneously began preparing a sizable navy.[6]

Unable to defeat Agesilaus's army, Pharnabazus decided to force Agesilaus to withdraw by stirring up trouble on the Greek mainland. He dispatched Timocrates of Rhodes, an Asiatic Greek, to distribute money to the major cities of the mainland and incite them to act against Sparta.[7] Timocrates visited Athens, Thebes, Corinth, and Argos, and succeeded in persuading powerful factions in each of those states to pursue an anti-Spartan policy.[8] The Thebans, who had previously demonstrated their antipathy towards Sparta, undertook to bring about a war.

I would go on about notable battles like Cnidus where the Spartan navy was confronted by the...united Athenean/Persian navy but i believe you caught my point already.

[Yauna]

MAKES U MAYBE THINK ANY gREEK mACEDONIAN cOMMANDER WITH aLEXANDERS ARMY COULD IN ACTUAL FACT HAVE Taken out the Persian Empire?

No I don´t think so. Another greek general would have conquer for sure the western part of Persian empire, I mean Ionia, Anatolia, Bitinia, etc and would have stopped there. The main Persian empire would have been left intact and retake losses afterwards. If this general would have continued I´m sure he had lost the last battle.

ATG never lost a battle, and this has no equal in all history. I´m with Ptolemy in Stone´s film " ATG is the man closer to gods that I know of" and besides this think that his ethic was over the one of his contemporaries.

[Yauna]

Callisto

Maybe your right. I actually am inaccurate. But what I really wanted to say is that the 300 Spartans were not who defeated Xerxes, these were Atheneans in Salamis and later, but all credits go to Spartans. History is not just with the braves sometimes!.

However I think that your statements about Agesilaus have no point here. This was another time, 60 years afterwards. Spartans thought they were the masters of Greece (they always thought so), and like always all the other greeks were against the master. Athens suffered same luck when was in top of its power. These are greek affairs.

But Sparta was reluctant to help when Xerxes got into Greece. Only when Atheneans told them they will leave Greece, they agreed to help. Oh dear, what will be of our souls without Atheneans getting all the kicks?. I am not happy with the myth this kids are the heroes that saved western lands.

[Callisto]

However I think that your statements about Agesilaus have no point here. This was another time, 60 years afterwards. Spartans thought they were the masters of Greece (they always thought so), and like always all the other greeks were against the master. Athens suffered same luck when was in top of its power. These are greek affairs.

That part of your post sounds quite ironic, keeping in mind you what you already wrote in your initial post:

Besides this, Sparta became afterwars a Persian customer, taking his gold in change of making trouble to Athens and the other greeks, and so relieving Persia from the greek threat.Instead of this Athens continued war against persians till it was possible.

and later you even jumped to Alexander's era:

We all have forgotten that but Alexander knew it and was faithfull to Athens because of this and forgived the city despite it was his main enemy in Greece.

Anyway your views sound to me extremely one-sided. I dont think people as a rule take Sparta as the exclusive reason of the Persian defeat but they consider it as a Greek achievement in general.

[Paralus]

If you had read ie the events leading to the so-called Corinthian war, you would have known Agesilaos and Spartans had attempted somehow in a minor level, to do what Alexander and Macedonians did later but unfortunately they faced the same trouble from other greek city-states…

Actually they used the same pretext - liberation of Ionian Greeks from Persians- in order to invade Asia Minor . Maybe he could have achieved it if Persian gold again havent caused several risings against Spartan hegemony in the mainland of Greece, among them the Atheneans.

A most interesting subject.

The so called “Corinthian War” had several causes, not the least of which being Spartan heavy handedness with erstwhile “allies”. A major irritant being the “imperial faction” led by Lysander followed by that aggrandising and aggressive King, Agesilaos. It is a way too simple explanation to point to Persian gold as the cause. That is not to say it did not play its part – it demonstrably did. That money will not ever have bought belligerents where only contented allies dwelt. Corinth, Thebes – and others – were quick to realise that they’d swapped one “imperial” power for another. In such a milieu, Persian gold would always find a mark. And against an imperial power they fought, make no mistake.

The near final indignity came when the “Persian” fleet being constructed for the invasion of Egypt was handed to Conon who smashed Spartan naval power in the Aegean at Cnidus.

The great “panhellenic” expedition of Agesilaos needs to be seen for what it was: a Spartan sop to their “Medising” to win the war. It in no way was ever meant to be realistic mission of conquest. Indeed, if the invasion is to judged by Agesilaos’ dilatory efforts, it was hardly even a “sop”. The whole episode is a testament to the rubbish of “panhellenism” at that time and, indeed, later.

The Greek city states were more interested in hegemony at home. That was all. The Asiatic Greeks were mere properties on a political Monopoly board to be traded for the Great King’s support.