Justin's comparison of Philip and Alexander

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Paralus
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Post by Paralus »

athenas owl wrote:Well, Paralus, off the top of my head, didn't Philip have a mutiny on his hands in the mid 350's? And possibly at the beginning of his reign, as well after the death of his brother in a battle which he lost (going from memory here).
I’ll take that chronologically. There was no mutiny at the beginning of his reign (at that stage regency). He was in command of a Macedonian force in Amphaxitis. It is at this time that he is likely developing the weaponry and drilling his forces in its tactics and use as Diodorus remarks. Into this “idyll” intrudes news that his brother and king, Perdiccas along with 4,000 soldiers, are dead on a battlefield in Illyria.

Philip bribed the Paeonians, took care of five usurpers (one, Argaeus, supported by 3,000 Athenian hoplites) and then, in the spring of 358 at the news of the death of the Paeonian king, invaded and crushed their army. After this he exhorted his army to be brave – “convening them in assembly after assembly” as Diodorus (or Ephorus) puts it – and took them on into Illyria where he met and destroyed Bardylis’ army.

The mutiny you refer to was during the Sacred War. The Macedonians, hitherto undefeated, suffered two reverses, the second being the more severe. Onomarchus, the general leading the Phocian mercenary forces, placed catapults behind a hill and pelted the phalanx as it approached. The Macedonians withdrew with some considerable loss and the army, it seems, was little interested in another tilt. Philip withdrew, restored morale and returned “like a ram, to butt the harder” in Polyaenus’ phrase.

That harder butt would see Onomarchus’ army utterly defeated at Crocus Field with over 6,000 dead and 3,000 murdered by drowning as “temple desecrators”.



karen wrote:You disagree but only cite yourself, and even in that quote talk about "the rank and file" in relation to Alexander, not the nobles or his friends, which I don't think is an effective rebuttal.
Well it wasn’t really a rebuttal; more a signing off for the night …err, morning.
karen wrote:Besides, you said Makedonians were much less pleased with Alexander at his end compared to Philip. It's specifically that that I'm challenging.

Philip's end was brought about by a Makedonian who was clearly not pleased with him (understandably, imo). Unlike in assassination attempts against Alexander, insofar as there was a conspiracy, no one was sympathetic enough with Philip to tip him off...
Philip’s end, as we have it, was brought about by a jilted lover who had been pack-raped by Attalus’ muleteers. Unless we venture onto hotly disputed ground and include Olympias and possibly Alexander in this, we are left to conclude that the fellow acted of his own accord. There was no groundswell of hatred or dislike from the Macedonian army or its commanders in the nobility.

Hammond, interestingly, argues that the thirteenth statue which preceded Philip into the stadium that day can really only be made sense of if Philip had asked for, and had conferred upon him by “the Macedones”, divine honours. He goes on to say that this may be the precedent that Alexander followed but was denied. Thus the anger.

The nobility’s relations with Alexander are neatly summed up in the words placed into Cleitus’ mouth prior to Alexander running him through. There is a large disconnect described in those words where Clietus – and he will not have been alone – describes a monarch far more high handed and seemingly self important than Philip.

Coenus is given the words to express the views of the rank and file at the Beas. They would go no further and demanded to go home. And this is a victorious army. At Opis, although different factors are at play, the mood is similar. There is huge resentment at the incorporation of Asian troops into both the Macedonian army and the "companionate". Philip didn't ever suffer such because he limited who would become "Macedones" and therefore who made up the national army elite.

Philip had spent his career sharing out the benefits of empire building: the creation of “cities of the Macedones” where veterans had peasant populations installed to farm estates for them and accrue the income they generated. Coenus’ father was given one such in Chalcidice. This was somewhat different for the veterans in Alexander's army. These veterans were paid and given gratuities but few had seen the largesse that Philip had handed out. Nor did they want that in some “Alexandria in the middle of nowhere”.

We don’t have the amount of material on Philip as we have on Alexander and would it were, as Amyntoros says, that we had Theopompus, Marsayas Macedon, Dyillus or Ephorus. Even so, in what we do have, nowhere do we find anything comparable to the internal criticisms and attacks that we have about Alexander. That may be down to the material but the fact remains that the only real show of anger and dislike for Philip comes from his son and his mother.

Philip was a different character to his son. Not only did take pains not to set himself apart from his nobles or companions, he led the army on foot on several occasions by commanding the phalanx.
Last edited by Paralus on Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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These Bloody Lyncestians...

Post by Callisto »

Paralus wrote:
karen wrote:Besides, you said Makedonians were much less pleased with Alexander at his end compared to Philip. It's specifically that that I'm challenging.

Philip's end was brought about by a Makedonian who was clearly not pleased with him (understandably, imo). Unlike in assassination attempts against Alexander, insofar as there was a conspiracy, no one was sympathetic enough with Philip to tip him off...
Philip’s end, as we have it, was brought about by a jilted lover who had been pack-raped by Attalus’ muleteers. Unless we venture onto hotly disputed ground and include Olympias and possibly Alexander in this, we are left to conclude that the fellow acted of his own accord. There was no groundswell of hatred or dislike from the Macedonian army or its commanders in the nobility.
Things are much more complicated than simply a jilted lover's revenge. The assasin was a Macedonian who came from the area of Orestis. Right after the assasination the sons of Aeropus, Arrhabeus and Heromenes were charged to be involved in the conspiracy, hence were executed as conspirators.

Alexander of 'Lyncestis' would follow the same fate but he managed to save his life by recognizing immediately after the assasination, Alexander as king of Macedon.

Until now as we have it, the conspirators according to Macedonians were:

(a) Pausanias - An Orestian

(b) Heromenes and Arrhabaeus - Two Lyncestians (excluding Alexander of 'Lyncestis')

So we have all the conspirators against Philip's life coming from Upper Macedonia. If we pressume Pausanias' action was based solely as revenge and exclude him, then we should question the motive behind the two sons of Aeropus.

Note these brothers if they are not members of the Lyncestian royal house, they are certainly nobles. As Lyncestians they have NO chance of becoming kings of Macedon or even running as pretenders. Only members of the Temenid house could become kings or regents. So there is no political motivation behind their execution.

This leaves us with the choice they were indeed collaborators of Pausanias one way or another. If we examine the early history of the Upper Macedonian kingdoms we will find out there was a long-time rivalry between these royal houses - especially the Bacchiads of Lyncestis - and Argead kingdom.

As a matter of fact Philip achieved what his predecessors failed. To 'incorporate' into his kingdom the previously independent mountain kingdoms. This 'incorporation' was most likely to have been translated by many nobles of Upper Macedonia as 'subjection' rather than incorporation as their actions revealed.

I am far away right now from my library to check out each notable Lyncestian noble but from the top of my head we have:

(a) Menelaus the surnamed 'Pelagon' abandoned Macedonia at the time Philip annexed Lyncestis in his Kingdom and left for Athens where he became a Proxenos.

(b) Neoptolemus, another Lyncestian noble, found himself in the side of..Persians among Greek mercenaries fighting his own people during Alexander Asian expedition.

(c) Alexander the 'Lyncestes' managed to survive in Philip's assasination even if sources are also giving him as a participant in the conspiracy. We know well his further 'achievements' including conspiracies later during Asian conquests. No surprise that Olympias warned Alexander to beware of the "Lyncestian Alexander'.

So yeah seems a considerable number of Macedonian mountaineer nobles may have felt Philip's rule and later Alexander's as at least 'threatening' for them.
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Post by karen »

Hi all:

Points well taken, Amyntoros -- Justin was, of course, stating his own opinion. You are also right that a king technically and thus necessarily is always ruling over his friends.

And thanks to you Callisto for your very knowledgeable reminder that Philip's Makedonian kingdom was not a united monolith. I wonder if Philip's nephew Amyntas, whom Philip was supposed to be keeping the throne warm for, might have been either an accomplice or the intended king or both (having promised sweet rewards to the others)? You could understand it. Note Alexander knocked him off too, eventually, though extra-judicially; maybe some new info came up, or he was unwilling at first because Amyntas was kin.
Philip’s end, as we have it, was brought about by a jilted lover who had been pack-raped by Attalus’ muleteers. Unless we venture onto hotly disputed ground and include Olympias and possibly Alexander in this, we are left to conclude that the fellow acted of his own accord.
Someone had horses waiting for him, so he most definitely did not act on his own accord.

I personally think Olympias was behind it, with other local conspirators -- who were, again, too tight and resolute for any of them to tip Philip off, or blather to someone who would. I doubt she'd have allied with Persians or Athenians to do it. I also don't think Alexander was in on it, because he didn't have to be, to play his designated role -- take over as king -- and I think we have too much evidence of his religious devotion to allow that he'd take part in what was considered not just a crime but a blasphemy. And he had saved Philip's life before. I know you can ask qui bono, but the list of people to whom that would apply is pretty long.
Hammond, interestingly, argues that the thirteenth statue which preceded Philip into the stadium that day can really only be made sense of if Philip had asked for, and had conferred upon him by “the Macedones”, divine honours.
It is an interesting argument, but I'd buy it more if they had been allowed to see the statues beforehand, and if one or more of the ancient sources had actually said right out that Philip asked for and received divine honours. I'll grant that there's no way he would have presented the statue if he didn't think Makedones would at least tolerate it. Of course he may have been wrong... they hardly had time to react before there was something much bigger to react to.

But I'm going to throw another possible interpretation at you, based on the idea that Makedonians were very religious, believed that the Gods influenced earthly events, and believed strongly in omens.

The statues are carried in and everyone sees Statue #13 -- just as big and nice as the other 12, and placed centrally, displacing even Zeus. So Philip is saying, not only am I a God, but I'm just as divine as the Olympians and even their King. A shocking sight, to those who are truly religious.

Five minutes later, he who would sit among the Immortals is dead.

How's it going to be interpreted, by those who believe Gods can act in the world? That he's committed hubris, and been suitably and instantly punished, the Gods working through a mortal assassin. How else?

Notice how Alexander, despite his divine conceit, never had any statue of himself placed with those of Gods? I wouldn't have if I were him, either.

So -- the Makedonians had this vivid lesson etched on their minds, not that far back. Might their reluctance to grant divine honours to Alexander -- despite his conquests, which were what fueled the notions of divine status, being so far greater than Philip's -- perhaps been prompted by fear of losing him?
He goes on to say that this may be the precedent that Alexander followed but was denied. Thus the anger.
You can't make a single event concerning one noble into a longstanding anger against all nobles, though. What other evidence is there that Alexander was lastingly angry at any nobles? Charging Philotas? He had to be talked into it by other nobles!
The nobility’s relations with Alexander are neatly summed up in the words placed into Cleitus’ mouth prior to Alexander running him through. There is a large disconnect described in those words where Clietus – and he will not have been alone – describes a monarch far more high handed and seemingly self important than Philip.
Placed into Kleitos's mouth by whom? No two sources have the same talking points. And we can't assume that Kleitos -- who was likely angry because he was being assigned to a desk job, away from the action, and took it as a slight on his fighting ability -- wasn't speaking only out of his own resentment. Sure there was a verbal donnybrook about the relative worth of the older men's achievements versus the youngest, and Philip's versus Alexander's, the sort of stupid, pointless argument people get into when they're drunk, but my guess is that probably happened fairly often, without bloodshed, to be forgotten, laughed about and/or made up in the morning. Kleitos was alone in how vehement and insulting he got, else he wouldn't be singled out in all the accounts, and he wouldn't have had his own friends trying to shut him up and drag him out.

Incidentally, elsewhere, Paralus, you've cited almost-regicide Hermolaos as a witness to Alexander's character. This is a youth sworn to protect a king who's attempted to murder him in his sleep but was instead caught, and who is now filled with rage and self-justification and so wants to vilify the king and hurt his reputation as much as humanly possible before being executed. Hardly a credible character witness.
Coenus is given the words to express the views of the rank and file at the Beas. They would go no further and demanded to go home. And this is a victorious army.
But they didn't hate Alexander. They just wanted to go home. When he conceded they were okay with him again.
At Opis, although different factors are at play, the mood is similar. There is huge resentment at the incorporation of Asian troops into both the Macedonian army and the "companionate". Philip didn't ever suffer such because he limited who would become "Macedones" and therefore who made up the national army elite.
This was another understandable sentiment, and it was a dilemma without an answer that was going to please everyone -- because politically, it was best for Alexander to give some of the plum jobs to Persians, to show he trusted them, to incorporate them into the rulership of their own people, etc. This isn't about his character or likeability. It's about the difficulties of empire. If Philip hadn't been assassinated (after wise second thoughts, perhaps, about that thirteenth statue ;) ) and had invaded Persia equally successfully as Alexander -- as he was planning to -- he'd have run into exactly the same dilemma.
Philip had spent his career sharing out the benefits of empire building: the creation of “cities of the Macedones” where veterans had peasant populations installed to farm estates for them and accrue the income from they generated. Coenus’ father was given one such in Chalcidice. This was somewhat different for the veterans in Alexander's army. These veterans were paid and given gratuities but few had seen the largesse that Philip had handed out. Nor did they want that in some “Alexandria in the middle of nowhere”.
Well, the Alexandria-in-the-middle-of-nowhere argument I can see -- c.f. Kleitos above -- but again, that's part of the difficulties of empire, which Philip would have run into also had things gone according to his plans. It's not fair to judge Alexander harshly next to Philip using situations that Philip never had to deal with. And I don't think you can fault Alexander for lack of largesse, when he did things such as pay off every soldier's debts, no questions asked.
We don’t have the amount of material on Philip as we have on Alexander and would it were, as Amyntoros says, that we had Theopompus, Marsayas Macedon, Dyillus or Ephorus.
Indeed!
Even so, in what we do have nowhere do we find anything comparable to the internal criticisms and attacks that we have about Alexander. That may be down to the material but the fact remains that the only real show of anger and dislike for Philip comes from his son and his mother.
And Pausanias. Now what do all three of these people have in common? Intimate or immediate family relationships with the man. Does that look good on him? Not in my book. (Nor Demaratos of Corinth's, by his remark.) Whenever a parent and his offspring don't get along, the first person to look at is the parent, since the relationship started with the child being only a child -- the tone is entirely set by the parent.

And personally, if my father condoned another noble implying that I was a bastard and my mother a whore in public, I'd be ticked too. And if Dad then drew his sword on me, because I called the other noble out for it, I'd be even more ticked. (It was blasphemous to kill your son, too.) If this was typical behaviour from the father -- in vino veritas, perhaps there were many other instances in private -- of course the son would be angry.

Further -- does this event demonstrate an egalitarian-style tolerance of free speech in Philip's court? What was the message it must have given to everyone there? "My own son speaks out of line, I'll kill him -- don't doubt I'll do the same to you." Maybe we hear more internal criticism of Alexander because he was more willing to hear it himself.
Philip was a different character to his son. Not only did take pains not to set himself apart from his nobles or companions, he led the army on foot on several occasions by commanding the phalanx.
You're saying Alexander never fought on foot??? He was heading a cavalry charge off the ships and over the broken walls of Tyre? Rode Boukephalos in that narrow squeeze along the streambed under the wall of Kyropolis? Got his subsequent mount to climb the ladder with him clinging to his back up the wall of the city in Mallia where he was shot? (Alexander, that is, not the horse ;) ) ...those three just off the top of my head.

Why I think we never hear about him fighting in the phalanx: he was too shrimpy. These guys had to carry spears of 13 to 18 feet, depending on who you believe -- so the bigger guys they were, the better. It would make sense to have a height requirement, and my guess is that Philip instituted one. And his diminutive spawn didn't cut the mustard.

Getting back to "rule with" vs. "rule over" friends -- there is one friend whom Alexander was very willing to rule with: Hephaistion. Was Philip ever heard to say, of anyone, "He too is Philip" -- or the like? Or name anyone to such a high position as the chiliarchy to which Alexander appointed Hephaistion after returning from India? In fact, is Philip shown ever to have had anyone who was such a close friend, at all? I can't think of one. If there's any truth in what Justin wrote about his policy re friendships, I can see why not.

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Post by Paralus »

Hi all.

This will be quick: it’s Easter Saturday and I’ve the “Companions” coming over to consume a Moroccan slow baked leg of lamb that I desperately need to put into the BBQ and quantities of - not quite - Macedonian red. With luck I’ll address other issues on Monday…
karen wrote: I wonder if Philip's nephew Amyntas, whom Philip was supposed to be keeping the throne warm for, might have been either an accomplice or the intended king or both (having promised sweet rewards to the others)?

Someone had horses waiting for him, so he most definitely did not act on his own accord.
I kind of figured this would detour into the wilds. No, physically he did not act alone. I don’t believe ha acted as part of a larger conspiracy to replace the king. I believe that he acted on his hate on its own merits.

The argument has raged since antiquity and the “evidence” for Olympias’ involvement, if taken as read, is absolutely indicting yet it has never been “swallowed”. It is introduced by words such as “it has been said” and the like. Diodorus implies that he acted alone but again I’d prefer that he acted on his own motives.
karen wrote: I personally think Olympias was behind it, with other local conspirators -- who were, again, too tight and resolute for any of them to tip Philip off, or blather to someone who would. I doubt she'd have allied with Persians or Athenians to do it.
And that may be correct though it is impossible to reconstruct the events. We aren’t even certain she was in Pella at the time though it remains quite possible.

It may even be that the indictment of the sons of Aeropus was an invention after the fact to cover the purge that secured the succession. Neither of these two – or Alexander of Lyncestis – were in line for the throne and could hardly have hoped to succeed a murdered Philip. It is more likely that they supported Amyntas. Again, the evidence is lacking and a firm case cannot be recovered from what we have.

What we do know is that, with Antipater’s active and extremely timely help, Alexander conducted the regulation dynastic purge and his rather murderous mother finished it off for him. All else devolves down to speculation upon circumstantial evidence.

At best one might argue that Philip’s dynastic ploys in his last year set off a power play among his senior nobles who decided they were not about to be dealt out of any future influence, the beneficiaries of this year being Attalus and Parmenion. We can’t know for sure though.

I don’t argue the drunken words argument Karen but it is not isolated. Certainly the invective is both Clietus’ and Alexander’s but while that is true it is also true that the Macedonian aristocracy took a dim view of Alexander’s “orientalising” and his increasing hauteur. The alcohol fuelled anger aside, the views will have been held by others of the aristocracy as well – as the repudiation of the mass weddings implies. Too, the army, at the strong urging of a power centralising Perdiccas, utterly repudiated the dead king’s further plans.
karen wrote:You're saying Alexander never fought on foot??? He was heading a cavalry charge off the ships and over the broken walls of Tyre? Rode Boukephalos in that narrow squeeze along the streambed under the wall of Kyropolis? Got his subsequent mount to climb the ladder with him clinging to his back up the wall of the city in Mallia where he was shot? (Alexander, that is, not the horse ;) ) ...those three just off the top of my head.
No. I’ve argued he was on foot at Chaeronea – that, though, under Philip’s command. I clearly understand that one would not assault a city wall on a horse – I do not refer to sieges and the like. I am referring to Philip’s habit of leading the army on foot by leading the phalanx. Aside from “skirmishing” actions (the Persian Gates for example) where we do not have a “pitched” battle we do not hear this in Alexander’s case.
Last edited by Paralus on Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by karen »

I clearly understand that one would not assault a city wall on a horse
But you have to admit, the horse climbing the ladder makes a striking mental image, doesn't it? :wink:

Substantive answer tomorrow as I am off to bed.

Curious -- are you exactly opposite to Eastern time, i.e. 12 hours different? Posting this around midnight -- is it 12 noon there?

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Post by amyntoros »

A quickie response from me as well - it's past 2 a.m. and I need to sleep. :)
karen wrote:Incidentally, elsewhere, Paralus, you've cited almost-regicide Hermolaos as a witness to Alexander's character. This is a youth sworn to protect a king who's attempted to murder him in his sleep but was instead caught, and who is now filled with rage and self-justification and so wants to vilify the king and hurt his reputation as much as humanly possible before being executed. Hardly a credible character witness.
I'm not convinced that Hermolaos' words make him a less than credible character witness. He was sworn to protect the king, yet he planned to murder him! One usually has a good reason for taking such an action! While on trial for his life, don't you think it unlikely that he "invented" reasons for conspiring to kill Alexander? I do suspect, however, that he was influenced in his opinions of Alexander and I'm unwilling to lay all the blame at Callisthenes' door. There were probably old guard Macedonians who felt the same way, possibly in his own family and in the families of the other pages. These same families were certainly determined to remove any taint from themselves by giving their own kin a terrible death.

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Post by marcus »

amyntoros wrote:I'm not convinced that Hermolaos' words make him a less than credible character witness. He was sworn to protect the king, yet he planned to murder him! One usually has a good reason for taking such an action! While on trial for his life, don't you think it unlikely that he "invented" reasons for conspiring to kill Alexander?
I agree entirely. Hermolaus knew that he was finished - I cannot believe for a moment that he thought he would survive his trial. In a situation like that, you don't make up your reasons for committing the act - he would either have shrugged his shoulders and remained quiet, or outpoured all his resentment, anger, hate, etc. etc. which caused him to attempt the deed in the first place.
I do suspect, however, that he was influenced in his opinions of Alexander and I'm unwilling to lay all the blame at Callisthenes' door. There were probably old guard Macedonians who felt the same way, possibly in his own family and in the families of the other pages. These same families were certainly determined to remove any taint from themselves by giving their own kin a terrible death.
That's an interesting one to debate - "possibly in his own family". His father accused him, and even tried to kill him before the trail was over - cynical manipulation, considering he was otherwise going to get a spear in the guts for being the conspirator's father? Or was it genuine horror that his own son should conspire to kill Alexander? His condemnation of Hermoaus saved his life, and Alexander must have felt secure enough that his mercy wasn't going to come back and bite him.

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Post by karen »

Amyntoros wrote:
One usually has a good reason for taking such an action!
Am I reading this right? Assassinations by those sworn to protect are always justified, and the word of an oathbreaker, i.e. a liar by definition, is to be trusted? ???

Pausanias must have had good reason to knock off Philip, then, too. (N.B. Paralus!)

Sure Hermolaos had reason to invent, or at least exaggerate. Rage, self-justification, the desire to come across as a champion of freedom, and perhaps a vain hope of sympathy from the crowd -- accepting that you're going to die is a very hard thing, especially for a teenager, and if he maintained futile hopes he wouldn't be the first.

But it seems "You had me flogged and took away my horse for spearing the boar before you did when we went hunting, as per Makedonian tradition" didn't have enough of a ring of lofty motive for him to mention ;)

Reading Lane Fox I'm reminded that demotions of dads might have been pertinent too.

Backstabbers can yack about principles all they want -- generally their reason for such an action is personal grudge and/or ambition. (Can't remember where I read that one or more of the pages were advised that the way to become the most famous man was to kill the most famous man.) Reading Curtius I am reminded that the Makedonian assembly was so enraged at the pages during their trial that Alexander had to intervene so as to allow Hermolaos even to get past the beginning of his speech. And the rest just made them madder.

If the assassination attempts were indicative of a significant groundswell of discontent among Makedonians, and thus justified, why did the assembly, which served as judge/jury, both times condemn the key accused, even though the evidence against Philotas wasn't great? Why did Hermolaos' brave words find no sympathy? And why didn't the murder of Kleitos serve as the flashpoint for a generally-supported coup -- which with Alexander in his tent flattened with remorse would have been easy to pull off -- but instead was answered with a mass condemnation of Kleitos? Because Makedonians knew they still had a good enough relationship with their king that if they justifiably objected verbally en masse to something, he'd listen. As both the abandonment of the proskynesis idea and the turning back from the Beas prove.

As for Kallisthenes, reading Lane Fox I'm reminded that the letter supposedly from Alexander citing the pages' declaration that Kallisthenes was not involved is possibly a forgery. Ptolemy and Aristobulos both wrote that they said he was.

Always it's the same thing, much to our frustration! The one set of writers are accused of whitewashing, the other of blackening, and the truth is lost in their contradictions. It is not valid, in my opinion, to completely discredit all accounts by either set because they are "apologists" or "detractors." But I see this done with Ptolemy and Aristobulos as apologists all the time. I think it's safest to believe the apologists when they damn and the detractors when they praise. Someone should do a bio based only on this plus that which all sources agree on. (Of course what do you do when even the apologists disagree with each other, e.g. how Kallisthenes died? <sigh> You have to give Arrian credit for responsible scholarship for openly throwing up his hands, rather than making an arbitrary choice, on that one.)

But I can't help but wonder where Hermolaos, a teenager raised in the Makedonian tradition that kings had divine ancestry, got all these principled notions, with their southern Greek tinge, if not from Kallisthenes. Also, if Kallisthenes was innocent and the nobility agreed with his views, how was it that none of them seem to have done much of anything in his defense?

I fear I am coming to be seen as an apologist myself for defending Alexander for, essentially, being a creature of his times rather than more of an inhuman monster than others. Fact is, they were brutal times -- times in which people would easily do each other in for power, money, revenge (which they considered sacred), or looking at each other slantwise on occasion -- and you can no more raise up would-be killers of Alexander for justification or principle than you can Alexander himself when he waded in blood. In other words, you can't say Alexander was evil for knocking off Attalos, but Philotas was justified in purposely not reporting an assassination plot when he and his father would have been in a good position to seize power on Alexander's death. It was about power in both cases. You can't say, wasn't it clever of Philip to build his empire by ruthless deceit, but wasn't it rotten of Alexander to build his by ruthless force. It was about empire-building in both cases. You have to start your judgment of everyone from a level field.

Seems to me the only character distinction we've succeeded in making with Philip and Alexander, really, was that if you crossed Philip, he'd smile sweetly in your face and then stick a shiv through your ribs quietly later, and if you crossed Alexander, he'd just right off bash you over the head, in front of everybody. I guess it depends on which character type one finds more appealing; I personally put a big premium on honesty so the latter seems the lesser of two evils, and that's my bias. Were there people discontented with how each ruled? Absolutely. In both cases, they were a minority. Ruling the bigger empire Alexander had bigger internal challenges and conflicts -- but it was still a minority.

The Makedonians, from long experience, were so aware of the strength of the blood feud tradition in their culture, and the danger it could impose on the stability of the kingdom if the king got embroiled, that they first created and then maintained this awful, tyrannical law -- which, notice, Alexander partially waived on both occasions -- stating that all male kin of someone executed for assassination or attempted assassination should also be executed. (In my opinion this is why Sopolis was so enraged -- it's the typical father-to-son "You didn't think out the consequences, did you, you little @#$%, thank you so very much!" I don't think he owes his life so much to his own reaction, actually, as to the youngsters who informed. If the plot had succeeded, no amount of condemning his son would have saved his skin.)

I don't interpret the cancellation of the last plans and the abandonment of the marriages as disagreement with them in principle, or a testament to Alexander's bad character. I think the plans were more likely seen as something only he could have pulled off, and besides now there was this other little matter to attend to <steely sound of long knives being loosened in sheathes> ;) ). Re the marriages, I doubt Alexander forced his nobles to take them; more likely he inspired them with his dream of merging the two nobilities -- but once he was dead, everyone figured that dream was dead with him, and it was return to former reality.

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Post by marcus »

karen wrote:Am I reading this right? Assassinations by those sworn to protect are always justified, and the word of an oathbreaker, i.e. a liar by definition, is to be trusted? ???
I don't think anyone's saying the (attempted) assassination was justified - but Hermolaus surely thought it was!
karen wrote:But it seems "You had me flogged and took away my horse for spearing the boar before you did when we went hunting, as per Makedonian tradition" didn't have enough of a ring of lofty motive for him to mention ;)
This is where I have a problem with the whole Hermolaus thing - Alexander's action against Hermalous was, as far as we can tell, no more or no less than was his prerogative as king and as 'captain' of the pages. If Hermolaus really had a problem with that, enough to make him want to kill Alexander, then he was a queer fish indeed. That's why I don't think for one moment that the flogging was the reason. That's not to say that it didn't happen - and it must have been public enough for writers to have known about it.
karen wrote: (Can't remember where I read that one or more of the pages were advised that the way to become the most famous man was to kill the most famous man.)


It's in one of the sources - but indeed the story is told of about 3 different people, so its veracity a propos Hermolaus must remain in doubt. Very convenient, though ... :(

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Post by amyntoros »

Darn it. Here's another quick response - I hope to find time to write more later.
marcus wrote:
karen wrote:Am I reading this right? Assassinations by those sworn to protect are always justified, and the word of an oathbreaker, i.e. a liar by definition, is to be trusted? ???
I don't think anyone's saying the (attempted) assassination was justified - but Hermolaus surely thought it was!
My point exactly. A flogging alone hardly seems like sufficient justification! Hermolaus obviously felt he had good reasons for the attempt and I think it's safe to assume that he somewhat naively expected to survive if he had been successful, which would suggest that he had heard others express negative feelings about Alexander. His own father knew that there was much more involved or he would not have put his hand over his son's mouth to try and silence him at the trial! Nor does the flogging justify the deep involvement of the other pages, IMO.
marcus wrote:
karen wrote:] (Can't remember where I read that one or more of the pages were advised that the way to become the most famous man was to kill the most famous man.)


It's in one of the sources - but indeed the story is told of about 3 different people, so its veracity a propos Hermolaus must remain in doubt. Very convenient, though ... :(
Yes ... and one of the tales is told about Pausanias! :wink:
Valerius Maximus, Book VIII. 14. ext. (3), 4 Of Appetite for Glory.
Glory is not neglected even by such as attempt to inculcate contempt for it, since they are careful to add their names to those very volumes, in order to attain by use of remembrance what they belittle in their professions. But whatever may be thought of their dissimulation, it is far more tolerable than the design of those who in their desire to be remembered forever did not scruple to gain notoriety even by their crimes.
Of their number perhaps Pausanias should be given first mention. For when he asked Hermocles how he could suddenly become famous and was told in reply that if he killed an illustrious man that man’s glory would redound to himself, he went and slew Philip, and indeed he achieved his purpose. For he made himself as well known to posterity by the murder as Philip by his achievements.
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Post by karen »

Hi Marcus et al:

Found it -- Plutarch.
Therefore when Hermolaus's conspiracy came to be discovered, the charges which his enemies brought against him [Kallisthenes] were the more easily believed, particularly that when the young man asked him what he should do to be the most illustrious person on earth, he told him the readiest way was to kill him who was already so, and that to incite him to commit the deed, he bade him not be awed by the golden couch, but remember Alexander was a man equally infirm and vulnerable as another.
Who else is the story told about?
marcus wrote:I don't think anyone's saying the (attempted) assassination was justified - but Hermolaus surely thought it was!
Well, Amyntoros wrote,
He was sworn to protect the king, yet he planned to murder him! One usually has a good reason for taking such an action!
...so I suppose how I ought to interpret it hinges on the meaning of the word "good" -- does it mean "emotionally compelling" or does it mean "morally right"?
This is where I have a problem with the whole Hermolaus thing - Alexander's action against Hermalous was, as far as we can tell, no more or no less than was his prerogative as king and as 'captain' of the pages. If Hermolaus really had a problem with that, enough to make him want to kill Alexander, then he was a queer fish indeed. That's why I don't think for one moment that the flogging was the reason. That's not to say that it didn't happen - and it must have been public enough for writers to have known about it.
But what evidence do we have that Hermolaos was not a queer fish?

Let's hit the sources... Curtius actually has another page, Sostratos, suggest the actual assassination, to Hermolaos, in response to Hermolaos bitterly complaining about the flogging (8.6.8.)

Arrian relates the flogging and then:
Hermolaos told Sostratos, son of Amyntas and his bosom friend, that life would not be worth living till he had his revenge for this brutal insult, and Sostratos, who adored him, was easily persuaded to take a hand in planning it. (trans. de Selincourt p. 224)
Diodoros... dang, just as Amyntoros wrote, Perseus is down.

Plutarch doesn't mention the flogging, just fingers Kallisthenes. Justin doesn't mention the pages' plot.

So the two sources who detail the planning (that I could access) both have the flogging as the key reason.

While I'm with Plutarch, there's this bit re Kallisthenes:
And to finish his [Kallisthenes'] disgrace, a number of such men as Lysimachus and Hagnon now came in with their asseverations that the sophist went about everywhere boasting of his resistance to arbitrary power, and that the young men all ran after him, and honoured him as the only man among so many thousands who had the courage to preserve his liberty.
This to me carries a ring of truth in that teens are naturally anti-authority, and seize on to older people who encourage the feeling...

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Post by athenas owl »

But I can't help but wonder where Hermolaos, a teenager raised in the Makedonian tradition that kings had divine ancestry, got all these principled notions, with their southern Greek tinge, if not from Kallisthenes. Also, if Kallisthenes was innocent and the nobility agreed with his views, how was it that none of them seem to have done much of anything in his defense?

I fear I am coming to be seen as an apologist myself for defending Alexander for, essentially, being a creature of his times rather than more of an inhuman monster than others. Fact is, they were brutal times -- times in which people would easily do each other in for power, money, revenge (which they considered sacred), or looking at each other slantwise on occasion -- and you can no more raise up would-be killers of Alexander for justification or principle than you can Alexander himself when he waded in blood. In other words, you can't say Alexander was evil for knocking off Attalos, but Philotas was justified in purposely not reporting an assassination plot when he and his father would have been in a good position to seize power on Alexander's death. It was about power in both cases. You can't say, wasn't it clever of Philip to build his empire by ruthless deceit, but wasn't it rotten of Alexander to build his by ruthless force. It was about empire-building in both cases. You have to start your judgment of everyone from a level field.

Seems to me the only character distinction we've succeeded in making with Philip and Alexander, really, was that if you crossed Philip, he'd smile sweetly in your face and then stick a shiv through your ribs quietly later, and if you crossed Alexander, he'd just right off bash you over the head, in front of everybody. I guess it depends on which character type one finds more appealing; I personally put a big premium on honesty so the latter seems the lesser of two evils, and that's my bias. Were there people discontented with how each ruled? Absolutely. In both cases, they were a minority. Ruling the bigger empire Alexander had bigger internal challenges and conflicts -- but it was still a minority.
The above bit from Karen.

Aside from my suspicions that Curitius was using Hermolaus to rail at Caligula (or whoever), where exactly would a teenager from Makedon gotten such views? The drinking parties in camp? I hardly think so. Callisthenes has his fingerprints all over this one I think. And again, teenagers do do remarkably bad things for not very good reasons and then when they are called on it, have some lofty righteous excuse. I doubt that has changed in the thousands of years we have passed. The Columbine shooters, for example and any group of teenagers that commit heinous acts for trivial reasons. The group mentality can justify a lot to itself. And what is to say that the flogging wasn't the first time that Hermolaus hadn't run afoul of Alexander. He may have been a royal screw-up on a regular basis.

The pages came from the upper class if my understanding is correct. The upper class of Macedon, that hard drinking and certainly undemocratic class who probably had comiited their own vengeance on occasion.

This was a culture where the royal family offed each other with a consistent regularity (Philip ii included), the blood fued and just all around violence was not for the faint of heart (of today). In war, didn't Philip also raise a number of cities to the ground? He had to run his army roughly at times and yes, at the wedding party, in a drunken rage, he took his sword to Alexander. Fortunate are this board and a whole lot of scholars and authors he did not succeed. Alexander killing Cleitus is remembered so well because Philip did not succeed in his own staggering attempt at filicide.

I, too, sound like an apologist for Alexander and I'm not. I "like" Philip better as well. It's the wit. But would Philip, had he made it as far as the page's plot and Afghanistan, have made any different choices? Though, I like to think that like Parmenion did to Euphraeus, Philip would have put that pesky philosopher away as well, and sooner!

Would Philip, he of the drunken revelry after Chaeronea, been any more of the sober ideal that "Hermolaus" is said to have championed and found Alexander wanting?
Last edited by athenas owl on Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by karen »

Posted the above before Amyntoros' message came through. So there's one other person the story is told about, Pausanias.

It's something of a truism anyway, isn't it? Kill the big cheese, get your name in the paper. Still works.

Amyntoros:
My point exactly. A flogging alone hardly seems like sufficient justification!
Depends on how much a person resents it. Arrian has Hermolaos feeling life is not worth living if it's not avenged.

Makes you wonder his source got that...a private conversation between him and Sostratos. It had to be one or both of the two pages themselves. Sostratos, since Hermolaos didn't cite it in his speech? But then why would he incriminate himself as the source of the idea, as Curtius has it. ???

Always these questions!
Hermolaus obviously felt he had good reasons for the attempt and I think it's safe to assume that he somewhat naively expected to survive if he had been successful, which would suggest that he had heard others express negative feelings about Alexander.
Or someone told him that there was more hidden hatred of Alexander than there actually was, perhaps because this person himself believed it, based on his own hatred and inability to accurately gauge the general feeling. Someone Hermolaos trusted as a source of wisdom, enough to stake his life and name on it.

There is always more than one possible interpretation to these things!
His own father knew that there was much more involved or he would not have put his hand over his son's mouth to try and silence him at the trial!
Same thing here. What Sopolis was afraid his son would say could plausibly be no more than, "And then you demoted my dad, you rotten king, and he didn't deserve it -- just ask him!" Or maybe Sopolis, who'd know his son better than anyone else present could, knew he was an rash conceited young idiot who'd just make the assembly more and more determined to kill him the more he spoke, in which case he was absolutely right.
Nor does the flogging justify the deep involvement of the other pages, IMO.
Now I have to agree with that. Lane Fox makes note of at least one other possible dad demotion. But teens can also do really stupid things if someone who seems all-wise and all-knowledgeable, as an eloquent philosophy teacher does to young students, gives their natural rebellious urges a sheen of justice and morality, so that they think that ultimately such acts will be appreciated and rewarded.

Oh oh... another new post just came in........ more on my theory of Kallisthenes coming....

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Theory of Kallisthenes

Post by karen »

And again, teenagers do do remarkably bad things for not very good reasons and then when they are called on it, have some lofty righteous excuse. I doubt that has changed in the thousands of years we have passed.
AO, are you the parent of one, perchance? I'm not, yet, but I've known lots of them.

Anyway -- I actually doubt Kallisthenes was planning to get the pages to kill Alexander. I think he felt himself above court intrigues; he lived the life of the mind, not of political skulduggery. And he probably didn't have the stomach for the risk. I see him, basically, as a geek -- highly intellectually-oriented, rigid in his opinions, arrogant about his abilities ("Alexander's divinity will be the result of my histories") and looking down on those less erudite than him, socially and politically inept (and therefore an inept flatterer, despite his game attempts), lacking understanding of warrior types, especially young ones (since he wasn't one), and thus unable to anticipate the possible effects of his own words on them.

Thus he didn't understand the following. Say you have a bunch of "human hormone tornadoes" (in Dave Barry's immortal words) who all carry knives and know how to use them and come from a culture where sticking them into people who do things you don't like is fairly common. And you're assigned to these kids as teacher, so you dazzle them with your brilliance and gain their idolatry, and then tell them that you are the only free man and everyone else is slaves, that democracy is the only legitimate form of government and all kings are tyrants, that you were a hero for alone refusing to bow to Alexander and then blowing off his refusal to kiss you, that the greatest heroes ever were Harmodios and Aristogeiton for their tyrant-killing, etc. etc. etc. ... for no other reason other than to brag a bit and share your fervent beliefs with your students, who might someday use them to improve their benighted culture. Now they've also heard Makedonians bitching about the king dressing like a Persian and asking them to bow down before him as if they were Persians -- which you yourself have decried as evil -- and promoting younger guys over older, and of course there's his murder of Kleitos, which despite the obvious bitter regret can be made to mean all sorts of things more than a moment of drunken insanity. Then come some personal grievances, like some paternal cashierings, and then a flogging for impertinence towards the king. Put it all together, and there's a reasonable possibility that by this point, some of the youngsters might dehumanize Alexander enough (since that's what you have to do to someone in your mind to kill him) to have the bright idea, "Hey! Let's start improving our benighted, page-flogging culture right now -- by killing the king!" -- even if you don't actually want or intend that.

So what's your degree of responsibility? Noam Chomsky said, "We are responsible for the predictable consequences of our actions." Were these consequences predictable? I think Alexander would have thought so. So I suspect that Kallisthenes' crime was not conspiring towards regicide, but rank stupidity in not anticipating that the thought might cross his students' minds, due in part to his teachings and complaints, and cautioning them just in case. This would explain why in some versions at least they didn't implicate him. It might have been a similar thing with Philotas -- not enough conspirators fingered him for him to have been an active part of it, but not reporting it was either opportunistic or monumentally stupid. Now considering that a king who's dead due to stupidity is just as dead as if it were due to intent, one can understand that the motivation to punish for stupidity is just as strong as for intent, in both the king and those who'd like to preserve his life. There is still such a crime today: criminal negligence, or the more severe one, criminal negligence causing death. And you can be thrown in the clank for it.

It's too bad Kallisthenes was never tried; perhaps more information would have come to light.

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Post by athenas owl »

Yes, I'm a veteran of the teenage tornado...I married a man with 6 kids. I survived intact, just barely. :lol:

I don't know about Kallisthenes..it is so murky, like everything that happened in that region. I'd give my eye teeth for a papyrus that chronicles the years from 330 to 326. What a mish mash. I have a made a flow chart, literally, to try to keep track...it doesn't help that much. (I make these a lot, for the Successor years and the family connections of Antipater, Ptlomey and Lysimachus...that last one, whew.)

How many different versions fo his death do we have, from "original" sources. This has amazed me.

Somewhere I've read that Aristotle said Kallisthenes had a lot of knowledge but no common sense and elsewhere that he didn't expect him to live long. Now, the letters (real ones) between those two would be fascinating.

Yes, criminal negligence is the perfect description, especially from someone who most likely wasn't that popular with the Macedonians...I'm speaking about K. and Philotas. It's not like ATG was quick on the execution. The Lynkestrian Alexander, he dragged along with his army for years before he was executed in the plot (if I am remembering correctly).

Also, and I know I am waundering here. If Parmenion was to be executed, why bother with the two letters?
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