Andrew Felando?

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Re: Bodybuilders?

Post by amyntoros »

pankration wrote:. Although Alexander was not too happy about the result it must be remembered that Dioxippus was personally chosen for Alexander's bodyguard by the great one himself.
I could be wrong, but I don't recall any source refering to Dioxippus as a member of Alexander's bodyguard. It is recorded that he was well liked by Alexander, and Curtius 9.17.16 has jealous Macedonians "saying that they had along with them a useless, bloated animal and that, while they went into battle, he was dripping with oil and preparing his belly for a banquet." My impression from the sources is that he was one of Alexander's hangers-on/flatterers. :)

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Re: Bodybuilders?

Post by marcus »

amyntoros wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't recall any source refering to Dioxippus as a member of Alexander's bodyguard. It is recorded that he was well liked by Alexander, and Curtius 9.17.16 has jealous Macedonians "saying that they had along with them a useless, bloated animal and that, while they went into battle, he was dripping with oil and preparing his belly for a banquet." My impression from the sources is that he was one of Alexander's hangers-on/flatterers. :)
You're right, Amyntoros. Dioxippus was never one of Alexander's bodyguards. It's possible that he was a hypaspist, which is sometimes translated as "bodyguard" - but I don't think so, because (a) he wasn't Macedonian, (b) I don't remember that he was mentioned as being a hypaspist. But he most definitely was not one of the somatophylakes.

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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Post by pankration »

Amyntoros and Marcus, I bow to your research. When I rechecked my sources I realized that I had blurred the line between the hypaspistai, the agema and of course the somatophylakes. There is no question that the somatophylakes were composed solely of Macedonian nobility during Alexander's campaign thereby making my statement that Dioxippus was a bodyguard completely wrong. The hypaspistai were composed mainly of Macedonians but non-Macedonians (Athenian in Dioxippus' case) were chosen. The agema were then chosen from this elite and whether or not someone like Dioxippus could have been a part of this specialized unit is open for discussion.

Plutarch states that the Macedonians resented Dioxippus because "he was not a soldier". The Greeks however supported him as their representative in his showdown with Coragus thereby making it likely that he was a soldier.

There is no evidence other than his statement referring to Alexander's blood that Dioxippus was a sycophant or fawning courtier to Alexander. They had become friends and others including Macedonian nobility had already started deifying their leader (look what happened to Callisthenes when he did not). To besmirch an athlete in a combat sport for one comment is stretching history, especially as he wrote Alexander a letter before his death whereupon he showed no remorse for the supposed theft. He exposed his plotters and committed suicide. Coragus, the defeated Macedonian was said to not be part of this plot.

Thanks gentlemen for keeping me on my toes. I'm getting a little lazy. :oops:
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Re: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

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marcus wrote:It's possible that he was a hypaspist, which is sometimes translated as "bodyguard" - but I don't think so, because (a) he wasn't Macedonian
pankration wrote: There is no question that the somatophylakes were composed solely of Macedonian nobility during Alexander's campaign thereby making my statement that Dioxippus was a bodyguard completely wrong.
Neither Somatophylakes nor Hypaspists seemed to be composed solely by Macedonians.
One of the somatophylakes was Arrybas who was an Epirotan (most likely from his name, a Molossian) and Plutarch places another non-Macedonian, the Molossian Neoptolemos as "archon of the Hypaspistes".
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Re: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Post by marcus »

Callisto wrote:
marcus wrote:It's possible that he was a hypaspist, which is sometimes translated as "bodyguard" - but I don't think so, because (a) he wasn't Macedonian
pankration wrote: There is no question that the somatophylakes were composed solely of Macedonian nobility during Alexander's campaign thereby making my statement that Dioxippus was a bodyguard completely wrong.
Neither Somatophylakes nor Hypaspists seemed to be composed solely by Macedonians.
One of the somatophylakes was Arrybas who was an Epirotan (most likely from his name, a Molossian) and Plutarch places another non-Macedonian, the Molossian Neoptolemos as "archon of the Hypaspistes".
Yep, fair enough. I obviously wrote too hastily.

However, if they were Molossian/Epirote, then their connection was through the royal house, in other words Olympias. Admittedly that doesn't make them Macedonian, but the next best thing (as it were).

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Post by amyntoros »

pankration wrote:Plutarch states that the Macedonians resented Dioxippus because "he was not a soldier". The Greeks however supported him as their representative in his showdown with Coragus thereby making it likely that he was a soldier.
Not necessarily, IMO. This was a contest between two men, not a battle, and Dioxippus had won a crown for his skills at the Olympic games. That he turned up oiled and naked and carrying only a club tells us that he felt his skills at the pancratium would prove him to be the superior in single combat. As it turned out, he was right. This isn’t, however, indicative of him being a soldier, and the excerpt from Curtius that I quoted earlier implies that Dioxippus did not go into battle for Alexander.
There is no evidence other than his statement referring to Alexander's blood that Dioxippus was a sycophant or fawning courtier to Alexander.
There’s the Macedonians’ dislike for the man! A non-Macedonian soldier could be a friend to Alexander without generating such extreme disdain – Eumenes for instance. While I acknowledge that there were others such as philosophers and poets at the court that were not also soldiers, it seems to me that the Macedonians believed Dioxippus served no purpose. In other words, why else was he there?
To besmirch an athlete in a combat sport for one comment is stretching history, especially as he wrote Alexander a letter before his death whereupon he showed no remorse for the supposed theft. He exposed his plotters and committed suicide. Coragus, the defeated Macedonian was said to not be part of this plot.
I wouldn’t say that I’m besmirching Dioxippus. I see no reason why Alexander shouldn’t have surrounded himself with all kinds of people whose company he enjoyed. And if they chose to flatter Alexander to maintain their positions at court, well, I believe it to have been common sense on their parts, especially if they had no other purpose on the campaign except to entertain or keep company with Alexander. As for Dioxippus’ death; it was indeed a tragedy and I feel terribly sorry for the man. He would not, of course, have shown any remorse for the supposed theft because all the sources indicate that he did not do it.

All of the above is, of course, just my interpretation of the sources. :)

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Curtius

Post by pankration »

As always you present a good argument and I thank you for getting me off my ass to actually check things out. Your quote from Curtius is transcribed correctly but as this excerpt shows, Curtius was wont to use his imagination to create stories that were reflections of a government he despised.

Taken as a whole, it is a very fascinating book, although it contains errors. Both can be explained from the fact that it has the History of Alexander of Cleitarchus (a contemporary of Alexander) as its source. The author of this book had written a fine history that focused on Alexander's presumed psychological development from a brilliant young conqueror to a paranoid despot. This psychological dimension makes Curtius' History of Alexander good reading and the Roman readers must have seen through it: of course, the real subject was not Alexander, but the tyranny of Tiberius and Caligula.

Curtius' origins are unclear although it was said that his father was a gladiator who did not serve in the Roman army. Curtius did so maybe there were some issues Curtius had to work through. Admittedly speculation on my part but until further evidence... :wink:
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Athenian Hypaspists?!!!

Post by Paralus »

pankration wrote: The hypaspistai were composed mainly of Macedonians but non-Macedonians (Athenian in Dioxippus' case) were chosen. The agema were then chosen from this elite and whether or not someone like Dioxippus could have been a part of this specialized unit is open for discussion.
The minutiae of the Macedonian army is not my largest interest. I am not one of those, for instance, who can rattle off the division numbers and commanders of the Waffen SS of WWII. I'm more interested in the socio-political outcomes the army is used to generate and its method of use. That said, during the time of Philip and until Alexander began taking Asian forces into his phalanx, the Hypaspists were Macedonian. The Pezhetairoi too were Macedonian. These were the Macedonian soldiers that Philip defined a European empire with and Alexander would take to Asia as the infantry par excellence. They – and their commanders – can be identified by region. In fact, it was this regional allegiance between troops and command that Alexander so assiduously whittled away after the murder of Philotas and Parmenion.
pankration wrote:Plutarch states that the Macedonians resented Dioxippus because "he was not a soldier". The Greeks however supported him as their representative in his showdown with Coragus thereby making it likely that he was a soldier.
Callisto wrote:Neither Somatophylakes nor Hypaspists seemed to be composed solely by Macedonians. One of the somatophylakes was Arrybas who was an Epirotan (most likely from his name, a Molossian) and Plutarch places another non-Macedonian, the Molossian Neoptolemos as "archon of the Hypaspistes".
Yes Callisto, the exception often proves the rule. Marcus has already pointed up the logical explanation here. Alexander himself was of the Epirote line. During the time of Philip (esp) and Alexander, it is as well to think of the Molossians and other Epirotes as – to all intents and purposes – part of Macedonia. Pyrrhus himself was lauded by the Macedonian army as the new Alexander – for a rather short time.

As to the Greeks supporting Dioxippus, that in no way surprises. Nor should it surprise that they would support him as an Athenian (Greek) athlete in a one on one athletic contest against a Macedonian – soldier or not. That they supported him in no way implies that Dioxippus was ever a soldier, least of all a Hypaspist.

I would most interested to see some source material listing Athenians, Thessalians, Boeotians or any other Greeks serving in the Pezhetairoi or Hypastists of Philip's or Alexander's army (at any of his major engagements).
pankration wrote:Curtius' origins are unclear although it was said that his father was a gladiator who did not serve in the Roman army. Curtius did so maybe there were some issues Curtius had to work through. Admittedly speculation on my part but until further evidence…
Further evidence to counter speculation, or, did I misread?

Plutarch, Arrian and Diodorus (not to mention their original sources) are all adept at retailing a good yarn. Theopompus rarely let a chance go by to have a dig at Philip. Curtius is not alone there. They, like all writers, write to a pupose and an audience. Alexander's "despotism", or, strong tendency to megalomania (fuelled by alcohol abuse) is, I think, a matter of record in sources outside of Curtius. Plutarch apologises for it and Arrian glosses over it until he can no longer ignore it. I think that criticism of Curtius has been a little overdone.

By the way, from where is the quote lifted?
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Post by pankration »

The minutiae of the Macedonian army is not my largest interest. I am not one of those, for instance, who can rattle off the division numbers and commanders of the Waffen SS of WWII. I'm more interested in the socio-political outcomes the army is used to generate and its method of use. That said, during the time of Philip and until Alexander began taking Asian forces into his phalanx, the Hypaspists were Macedonian. The Pezhetairoi too were Macedonian. These were the Macedonian soldiers that Philip defined a European empire with and Alexander would take to Asia as the infantry par excellence. They – and their commanders – can be identified by region. In fact, it was this regional allegiance between troops and command that Alexander so assiduously whittled away after the murder of Philotas and Parmenion.

I couldn't agree more. To beat this subject to death was never my intent and I am not arguing the general facts. I am only offering conjecture based upon my interpretation of the sources cited. The quote you asked me for was from livius or livy.com (it was a translation of Curtius' book with an overview by the translator. I thought I posted it but obviously late night reading makes my brain go mush. I'll find it again and send it to you.

My interest in Dioxippus is of course self-serving as I am writing a sequel to my first book and he is the key character. I will not apologize for the liberties I will probably take with some of the facts but I am sincere about being as accurate as possible. That's why I participate on this forum; I want you and others who conduct meticulous research to offer your opinions. I've already made changes based upon things I've read on this site; changes for the better. To slog through reams of research for a non-academic exercise is something I don't have time for. But put together a bunch of you...

Regardless, I will now leave this alone...unless I stumble across something new!
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Post by amyntoros »

Hi Pankration,
pankration wrote:[Regardless, I will now leave this alone...unless I stumble across something new!
Too late to drop it now, because I already had the following post composed. (Well, you still don’t have to respond, of course. :) ) Anyway, I hope that you are not offended if I tell you that I anticipated a response that in some way questioned the validity of Curtius. I should explain . . .

Over the years there has been many an occasion when a source has been questioned and criticized specifically because the contents therein displease the Pothosian and/or contradict his opinions of Alexander – and Curtius has always been a prime (although not exclusive) target. This is not to say that one shouldn’t examine all the sources in detail, and questions about their validity or if the ancient author had an agenda are always welcome subjects of debate. However, there’s a fundamental difference between examining the sources with a (hopefully) unbiased historiographical purpose versus dismissing, disregarding, or discrediting certain sources or excerpts because they do not support one’s viewpoint.

Even the wonderful Mary Renault was prone to the above. Well … I probably should say that she was particularly prone to it, but her incredible command of the English language tends to hide this from the casual reader. I’ll use some of her references to Curtius to demonstrate my point, working from the English hardcover edition of The Nature of Alexander. On page 106, Curtius is never trustworthy with atrocity stories. How does she know this? Answer - she doesn’t; she simply doesn’t want to believe those stories. On page 107 she tells us that all good historians have rejected Curtius’ story about Betis. In other words, according to Mary, if you believe the story then you are a bad historian! On Page 142 and the trial of Philotas, whom Mary believes to have been guilty (why else, in her opinion, would Alexander have tried and executed him?), Curtius’ florid artifice makes Philotas’ speech in his defence useless. On page 144, again concerning Philotas, she makes reference to (one of) Curtius’ unreliable purple passages, yet on the same page references Alexander’s letter to Parmenion which, she tells us, Curtius mentions without comment, explanation or drama, making it deserving of very serious attention. And, in further contrast, page 119 has the tale of a eunuch fleeing to Darius. Here, In Curtius … (the episode) … has every indication of having been first supplied by an eyewitness; a vivid and lively raconteur with a courtier’s sense of tact. Hmm, no descriptions of florid artifice on Curtius part when Mary wants to believe the stories are true! :)

And so it goes. All of us have some kind of bias depending on how we view Alexander, and sometimes when that bias is obvious to others we are then able to recognize this “selection” of which sources and stories are supposedly to be believed. In these cases, and when attempts to discredit particular authors are included, however unintentionally, I’m wont to step in and say, “Hold on a minute . . .”

Getting back to Dioxippus and your own bias (of sorts) in that you want to see him as a soldier – As far as Curtius’ reports of the episode are concerned, I see no reason not to believe him. I can see no agenda in Curtius stating that the Macedonians disliked Dioxippus before the incident of the one man combat. There’s no obvious reflection of Roman tyranny evident in this excerpt, and taken on face value, it doesn’t contradict any of the other sources. Nevertheless this doesn’t mean that you couldn’t portray Dioxippus as a soldier. You are writing fiction after all, and this necessitates expanding on what we know of particular characters. I would, though, find it more difficult to believe if you put your character in charge of Macedonian soldiers. But that, again, would be my own opinion. :)

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Post by Efstathios »

In my point of view, i dont think that the ancient writers about Alexander had agendas.What agenda would Curtius have?Maybe the only agenda that a writer would have would be that of diminishing Alexander.And the only source that could do that was Curtius who we might say that because he was a Roman he could have wanted to diminish Alexander in order for the Romans to appear "more Great".But i do not think this is the case here.

Curtius mistakes in his text, were of ignorance, or because he simply didnt verify them.Then we have some gossip based events, which could have been based on other ancient writters, but we cant know that because their books are lost.Curtius is mainly considered to be unreliable cause of these mistakes, like in chronologies or geography and detalis of battles, where the other sources more or less agree, and of his gossip style of writing.

Surely we cannot reject everything he wrote.We are just very cautious with some events that he describes.I dont think it has to do with how each one of us views Alexander, because generally Curtius is considered as unreliable by most of the historians.
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Post by amyntoros »

Efstathios wrote: Surely we cannot reject everything he wrote. We are just very cautious with some events that he describes. I dont think it has to do with how each one of us views Alexander, because generally Curtius is considered as unreliable by most of the historians.
Hi Efstathios,

From an earlier pothos thread - some of your comments on Curtius.
Lets move on to Curtius Rufus ... As he was innacurate in the other aspects of Alexander's life he was probably innacurate in the aspects of his character too.He comes in contradiction with Plutarh and Arrian. Therefore with Ptolemy and Aristovoulos too. Personally i think he is a very unreliable source.

Curtius was a roman. We all know the size of the moral and ethical decay in the roman empire (roman orgies e.t.c). Curtius was surely affected by the mores of his country and era (which were different of those of Plutarh and Arrian's) and this had a severe impact on his work. This is my personal oppinion of course but it is a fact that the majority of the historians consider him an unreliable source.
Curtius devoted his work in writing explicit details about Alexander. Maybe because he had as prototypes the roman emperors? Maybe because one of his sources was Cleitarhos,therefore the gossips of Alexander's soldiers? Maybe because he was the "gossips" writer of his era? Who knows? We cannot say with certainty.Maybe all that he wrote was truth. But the fact is that his sources were not the ideal ones.


And then there's this:
And of course Oliver Stone in order to show to the people how Alexander had come into a form of personal decay he showed him kissing Bagoas and e.t.c. He was based in Curtius when he thought of that,and it doesnt matter that no other source presents something like that , mr Stone presented it as a fact.
So ... you think Curtius is probably innacurate in the aspects of Alexander's character; was surely affected by the mores (moral decay, ethical decay, and orgies) of the Roman period which had a severe impact on his work; devoted his work to writing explicit details about Alexander; and you personally object to his portrayal of Alexander kissing Bagoas. And let's not forget that he and his sources are unreliable! :) Yet you still think that your opinion of Curtius has nothing to do with how you view Alexander? I'm sorry, but that's not the picture I see. Like it or not, personal biases affect our views and interpretations of the sources. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to attempt or to maintain objectivity when one has a personal vision of Alexander.

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Post by Efstathios »

Oh my! You actually dug out this post.When i was writing the latest post, i remebered more or less what i had written about Curtius then.I tried to give an interpretation (his roman backround) on why Curtius had written some things and liked to gossip e.t.c. But this has little to do with the fact that most of the historians see him us unreliable.

One reason is that he was fond of gossips, but the main one is that he was innacurate in geography, chronology, and some other things.Nothing to do with his Roman backround, which was my oppinion for the reason why he included spicey details.But as i said, i dont reject everything he has written.Because there other things too apart from spicey details.It is just that you cant take him as seriously as the rest of the sources we have.

So what does this have to do with my view on Alexander? If Arrian had written something similar, then i would be more acceptable to it, simply because of the nature of the writter.

The thing is that the view that we have on Alexander is solely based on the sources, cause these are that provide us with information about him.It isnt that i want Alexander to have been a drunk or not.It is what the sources said he was, or they give us an idea. And that's why we must critisize the sources according to their credibility.

Personally i dont reject anything, if we do not have enough information about it, I just see the source in this situation, which is Curtius , as unreliable. And the whole idea is that people state things as facts based on a source only, which happens to be considered as unreliable.I think if you search my posts in the past you will see that i always critisized the situations where people take something as a fact when they dont have enough information about it, just because of their point of view.See Hephaestion's relationship with Alexander.Most of the people say that they were lovers, while there is not a single account in the sources about that (except "Hephaestion's thighs" which i dont think it can be considered as an evidence).So they say it purely because someone or some people specculated it without any facts, and formed the public oppinion.
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Re: Athenian Hypaspists?!!!

Post by Callisto »

Paralus wrote: Yes Callisto, the exception often proves the rule. Marcus has already pointed up the logical explanation here. Alexander himself was of the Epirote line. During the time of Philip (esp) and Alexander, it is as well to think of the Molossians and other Epirotes as – to all intents and purposes – part of Macedonia. Pyrrhus himself was lauded by the Macedonian army as the new Alexander – for a rather short time.
The Epirotans weren't "part of Macedonia". During the time of Philip, their relation was based on the unsteady personal relationship between Philip and Olympias, hence was far from Epirus being part of Macedon. There was always inside Epirus a strong opposition not exactly with the best intentions towards Macedon, including a few members of Aeacidae who were still loyal to the exiled king Arybbas. The absence of Mollosian military in Alexander's campaign demonstrates clearly Macedonians didnt see Molossians as a "part" of them. Alexander of Epirus, eventhough attached to Macedonian court mostly through his marriage, looked mostly his own personal ambitions and his people interests than acting as a part of Macedon. Your example of Pyrrhus isnt very helpful for your assertion. His story shows the exact different. Constant conflicts with Macedonian Diadochi and even as an infant his fate was to be chased by Cassander - a declared enemy of Pyrrhus' father Aeacides - inside Illyria.
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Re: Athenian Hypaspists?!!!

Post by marcus »

Callisto wrote:The Epirotans weren't "part of Macedonia". During the time of Philip, their relation was based on the unsteady personal relationship between Philip and Olympias, hence was far from Epirus being part of Macedon.
That's true. However, it is most probable that the only reason Epirotes were admitted to the bodyguard was because of their relationship with Olympias. I know of no non-Macedonian or non-Epirote in the somatophylakes.

In 13th century England, the main reason why Henry III clashed with his barons (led by Simon de Montfort) was because of the positions of authority that he was handing out to his de Lusignan half-brothers and their associated uncles, etc.; which he did simply because they were his mother's children and new kinfolk (she had married again after the death of King John). Now, I know that the situations were not the same, but it is a classic example of people being preferred because of kinship - just as we are talking about here with Epirotes joining the somatophylakes.

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