Honesty And Doing The Right Thing

[jasonxx]

Many moons ago I asked a work colegue who was into Ancient Egypt A question.

I asked If maybe he was walking along some Desert and he tripped down a hole. Any way down this hole he found a preiceless Ancient Artifact Gold Covered with Diamonds and it was connected with Rameses the Great. I asked if he would keep it or hand it over for Egyptian Authorities etc. He replied that he would hand it to the authirities. Did I believe him I dont know.

Lets ask Porthonians a similar Question. your walking along an old goat track in Halkidiki out of the way.You kick over a stone and underneath you see what seems to be a box burried in the soil. Anyway you dig up the box which seems to have the Macedonian star on the top. It looks very old. Any way inside we find a few ancient Scrolls and a ring. Anyway lets say we know alexander had a regency ring. And we are pretty sure that this is the ring.

Would you keep it or give it to the authorites

To be honest I myself would keep it. My justification would be all the other treasured pifered for money, So at least thats my argument anyway.

Sorry for giving away my dishonesty.

Kenny

[Efstathios]

I would give it to the authorities, because i would like it to be at a museum, a Greek museum where it belongs, and it's existance to be known.Furthemore surely i would like to take some credit for the discovery.Maybe on an inscription at the museum it should be noted who found it and delivered it.And in Greece whoever finds something of this value gets a nice percentage of the value of it as for the finding.Recently a woman found ancient gold coins and stuff under a brick that her grandfather had found them and hidden them there.She gave them to the appropriate authorities.The value of these items were around 100.000 euros, and she got 50-70.000 euros for the findings.

So you would do a good act and be also rewarded for it.There is a reward because these items must stay here in Greece.Sorry Kenny for saying that, but due to this British maybe philosophy of "we find, we take" the Parthenon marbles along with many other items are now in the British museum, looted mainly by British like Elgin.

[jasonxx]

Hail Efs

I got mixed views with the marbles. Indeed they do belong to the Greeks. But its been said by a few scholars would they be safe in Greece. The Parthenon Hasnt been too well looked after in general. All the Gold and colourful pictures that were ruined.

The Last thing I think I remember reading was either The Turks or The Venecians stored gunpowder or munitions In the Parthenon only for some burk to put a match to it. The Greeks aint been to careful with its antiquities So I guess they are safer where they are.

Kenny

[Efstathios]

Kenny, please look again at what you have written.

All the Gold and colourful pictures that were ruined.

When the marbles arrived at the british museum the people that were supposed to conserve them, clean them e.t.c scratched them from their colours.Back in Greece the colours wore off because of time,enemy raids, and partly because of the explosion by the Turks.Greeks never scratched the colours off the marbles.

The Last thing I think I remember reading was either The Turks or The Venecians stored gunpowder or munitions In the Parthenon only for some burk to put a match to it. The Greeks aint been to careful with its antiquities So I guess they are safer where they are.

What could the Greeks do when the Turks stored gunpowder there?Tell them not to?We were under Turkish occupation, we didnt exactly have a say.

But it's not of an excuse that Elgin took the marbles to save them.Since 1821 Greece is a free country.So why havent the marbles been returned?

[jan]

O.K. Kenny, I can understand why you would want to keep them to yourself for awhile, but for the fact of eventually having to leave them behind, would you then give them to the authorities as provided in your will? Or would you leave them to a person who would cherish and treasure them as you had?

I will say this much. I would probably hold onto it for awhile but would eventually give it to the authorities. It is a lot like my time tunnel experiences as I cherish those so much but am naturally wanting to share everything I learn with others to appreciate too.

Right now, I am thinking how to make the best darn movie in the world to show Alexander as I think he should be seen and known, especially for young children to learn.

I have ahealthy respect for Alexander, and I wish that the world could know him through my eyes and memories of what I have learned. It is a lot like your theoretical problem but in this case it is for real. I think that we who respect and love Alexander want him to be known and cherished and treasured too.

[Efstathios]

Right now, I am thinking how to make the best darn movie in the world to show Alexander as I think he should be seen and known, especially for young children to learn.

Yes, that would be nice.You can make a movie for children using the higher values that Alexander represented, his will for exploration, for having a vision and following it, for educating people, e.t.c.But you would have to hide some things.You cant show to the children how Alexander murdered his best friend Cleitos for example.

Here in Greece kids know about Alexander, the basic things, but they learn more about his campaign and life at high school when they are old enough to learn about the destruction of Thebes, Tyros, the murder of Cleitos e.t.c.

The only thing that is not taught at schools here is the homo-bi sexual theory about Alexander which is of course not proven, and is a bit irrelevant with the history class.

[jasonxx]

Efs Hail

I cant understand why the Greek Schools ignore the possibilityThat Alexander was Bisexual although theres no need to bang on about theres still no need to sweep it under the Carpet.

The Whole concept of Bisexuality was at that time prevelent and the norm for a society very different to what it is today. I watched a programe about the Spartans sometime ago and was suprised to learn that Homosexuality was the norm and the only reel contact the men had with women was for the producing of Spartan Men. The Men Boys ate slept and were all into each other. Then we have the Sacred band famous for male lovers fighting side by side.

Its fair to say that the Macedonian men were as much into the women as boys so Bisexuality was the norm.

For Greeks to deny Alexanders sexualiy is a pretty limp one..

I would just go into Alexanders Friendship with Hepheastion. How amny peoiple have such a friend . The Divorce courts today are littered with Marriages and the venom and warfare that goes on between former spouces. where once they were in love is kinda scary. I doubt Hepheastion would have turned on or betrayed Alexander.

Friend ?lover? I see nothing wrong with that kind of relationship. Even if todays society can call it immorally wrong

Kenny

[Efstathios]

I watched a programe about the Spartans sometime ago and was suprised to learn that Homosexuality was the norm and the only reel contact the men had with women was for the producing of Spartan Men. The Men Boys ate slept and were all into each other. Then we have the Sacred band famous for male lovers fighting side by side.

I have watched that program.And i must say that i am dissapointed.One must not come to conclusions based on sparsed evidence.Have you seen the show "little Britain"? It is full of the word "gay" and gay jokes e.t.c.So, if someone 3.000 years from now sees that show ,an archaiologist lets say, what will he think?

But do you know what is the main thing that this program was based on?Two words.Erastis and eromenos.the modern Greek translation is "lover".But the ancient Greek meaning is that which Plato defines.An "erastis" (lover) is he who takes the boy into his protection and educates him."Eromenos" is usually the boy that is being educated and is under the protection of the older man.And according various sources such as Plato, the "erastis" didnt touch the boy in any way innapropriate.Furthermore, the father of the boy was the one that gave the supervision to the "erastis" to protect the boy.

And Lycourgos, the man that created the laws of Sparta, said that there is no body contact, at least in an erotic way, between the "erastis" and "eromenos".It was strictly prohibbited, and whoever broke that law was punished by banishment from Sparta or even by death.

So you see, things are not always as some people present them to be.Because someone at some point heard the word "lover" in ancient Greek and he thought that it had the modern meaning.Well that was not the case.But because of that man's ignorance now people think that men in Sparta ,in Athens, and in Macedonia, had homosexual affairs and only used women for procreation, something that is totally out of nature anyway.Also, books like that of Mary Renault's contribute to that.Many people that wrote books e.t.c. have been inspired by her books.

We have discussed this matter in the past too, but you dont (not only you personally) seem to give much attention to the sources presented.

Surely something like this cannot be taught to schools or universities since it has no real basis.The educational matterial in schools and universities, at least in Greece comes out of the sources, and studies uppon the sources and archaiology, not views of people that didnt know ancient Greek and hadnt studied the sources well enough to know better.

[dean]

Hi Jason,

Decent question.

I must admit, that if I ever set foot on Greek soil and just happen to uncover some trinket I knew was his- it'd be like getting a white scarf off Elvis- I mean would you really give it to some museum? I mean in the palm of your hand you have something that he wore or touched or whatever- it would give me the creeps-.
Although I have to admit that unselfishlessly in the event of my death I would in my will, ask it to be sent to the British museum.

Best regards,
Dean

Cogito ergo sum

[Efstathios]

ask it to be sent to the British museum

ohhhhhhhhh.....

[dean]

Don't worry Efstathios,

The chances of little old me uncovering one of Alexander's rings (and sending it to the British museum) is about as likely to happen as my meeting Frodo in middle earth and running off with another little ring.

Best regards
Dean

[amyntoros]

Would you keep it or give it to the authorites

There are really two levels to this question, the first being the morality issue. My son has sometimes taken a similar stance with a series of progressive inquiries that can begin with “What if you saw someone drop a wallet?” and end up with “What if you found hundreds of dollars lying there with no identification?” Basically he’s trying to find out if honesty and dishonesty are black and white issues or if morality has a grey area.

Personally, I’m scrupulously honest – will give back excess change in a store, etc. - and some of that is because I’d want people to do the same for me. The question posed here may seem like a victimless situation, but it’s not, and there’s much more involved than the morality issue.

I would mark the trail where I found the box and notify the authorities immediately. And if I could reach them by cell phone I’d probably leave the box where I found it and stay there to guard it – archeologists can learn much more from artifacts found in situ. For a start, there’d be the question of the provenance of the items. I could never know for sure if the ring belonged to Alexander no matter how much I might hope that it was so, and only an expert could attempt to find out one way or another. Then there’s the issue of what might be written on the scrolls which would excite me even more than the ring. Perhaps they’d tell about the owner of the ring, but maybe they’d have much more to say about the historical period. I believe that history belongs to us all and I’d feel the same way if all I found was a ring or an ancient empty box. And what if there was more to be found there, buried deeper under the ground?

I know … I know … you probably consider me to be a stuffed shirt, but what if someone else (other than yourself) found the ring and hid it away? You’d never know about it then. Wouldn’t you want to be able to share in the knowledge?

Best regards,

[jasonxx]

Amyntros Hail

Moraly your spot on and indeed the reasoning is deadly Accurate. However as Dean said. For me its like a white scarf from Elvis, And hey Dean Im an Elvis fan also.Only that Elvis conquered the world with his music and charisma. But was a weak man. If Presley had the Ironness of Alexander the guy could at least have become President of America. Once his mother was dead he was mindfully and mentally dead.

To hold and to ponder over an item that was Alexanders maybe id Leave it to The British Museum in my will. Amyntos your point about owing it to the Archiologists etc. I just think about all the Artifacts that must be hid in some billionaires Private collection. Probably bought on the black Market from Some Egyptian or Greek an Italian even selling treasures. Things must be somewhere ?

Its nothing to do with greed or personal wealth why I would keep the items . Its Alexander its personal is all. Even to sell the items what price could be put on such an Item, The Scrolls I guess would be more valuable than the Ring so I guess Id try read them and hand those in.

[marcus]

So you would do a good act and be also rewarded for it.There is a reward because these items must stay here in Greece.Sorry Kenny for saying that, but due to this British maybe philosophy of "we find, we take" the Parthenon marbles along with many other items are now in the British museum, looted mainly by British like Elgin.

Sorry to be picky, but the Marbles weren't "looted" - they were legally handed over to Elgin.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, and that's not to say that the British didn't at times act rather unworthily ... but we should be somwhat fair as far as the Marbles are concerned.

ATB

[jan]

Well, Kenny, your question solved a bit of a dilemma for me too. I personally do not believe that a man's sexuality is as important as other characteristics of his life, and Alexander's fame and renown has nothing to do with his sex life at all. So that is not a problem for me. His fame is due to one simple thing: his age, and his achievements.

I think that the sex problem is just as innane as the Macedonian/Greek problem. He is a king because of Macedonia, not because of Greece, and he was a father because of women, not men. Why argue about any of that?

My personal problem has been one of learning whether I am simply very psychic and have the key to learning all that there is spiritually about Alexander, as I have a book full of images and information, or whether it is a concept of reincarnation...and all that is questionable too. The point is that I have a vivid photographic memory and many images have come to me which I retain at this point, including that of his helmet at Gaugemela, and his actual real cuirass in its actual real physical makeup, but all these are encased in spiritual record, and none can be found physically today. So the problem is what to do? Keep them to myself, write a book, publish them, keep my mouth shut...they only prove one thing...that in a spiritual sense they exist, they can be reproduced and sold as toys, etc. or artwork...all are dubious in a nonbelievers eyes, yet as I know that the followers of Alexander are as hungry for information as anyone, now or in a future time, I feel that perhaps they should be shared in some fashion.

Physically, I believe that the Macedonians were all muscular, were all massive, very athletic, and very fierce and strong...an entire group of men like Arnold Schwarzenegger and The Rock...all so frighteningly huge as to make your head spin...

There is absolutely nothing effeminate or small about a Macedonian army. They scare the beewitches right out of you...

How do I know that? Not from reading the books, because none of them describe that at all...but from within my own insights into his life...and that is what I would like to impart...nobody could conquer any world unless he were physically capable of doing it, and that is why the legend of Alexander pales against the simple reality of it...something that generations do have a right to know.

I can go on and on and will stop now, but believe me, my version of Alexander is not that of any moviemaker's so far!

Alexander deserves better than he has gotten so far.