Darius- coward or ?

[smittysmitty]

For what its worth, Pyrrhus (the greatest general ever according to Hannibal) left the battle field on numerous occassions - as did many of Alexanders successors. I doubt that this qualifies them as cowards! Then again perhaps they ought to have fought it out in single combat as our Homeric Darius had among the Cadusians. A sign of true heroism. Hmm. I think that sort of stuff is left best for writers of fiction and lovers of romance.


Cheers!

[marcus]

Then again perhaps they ought to have fought it out in single combat as our Homeric Darius had among the Cadusians. A sign of true heroism. Hmm. I think that sort of stuff is left best for writers of fiction and lovers of romance.

Good call on Pyrrhus, Smitty.

We shouldn't forget that, during Alexander's own campaign, Erigyius fought single combat against Satibarzanes, who had revolted in Aria when the bulk of the army left for Bactria. Erigyius was sent back by Alexander with a small force to deal with the rebellion, accepted Satibarzanes' call for single combat, and slew him with a couple of deft spear blows. He then cut off the rebel's head and took it to Alexander as a trophy.

ATB

[dean]

Hello,
curiously enough I had a question about Pyhrrus.

It was not referring to the man you mention but the other famous Pyrrhus- Achilles' son.
He is also in some books referred to as Neoptolemus and I was just curious as to why he should have two names. Other people in the Iliad with two names are Alexandros or Paris.

With regards Achilles son, thought initially that it may be the Latin version and the Greek but not 100 percent sure.
Anybody know?
Best regards,
Dean

[marcus]

It was not referring to the man you mention but the other famous Pyrrhus- Achilles' son.
He is also in some books referred to as Neoptolemus and I was just curious as to why he should have two names. Other people in the Iliad with two names are Alexandros or Paris.

With regards Achilles son, thought initially that it may be the Latin version and the Greek but not 100 percent sure.

I have to be honest - I do know, somewhere in the depths of my cranium, but it does escape me for the time being. Someone else will, I'm sure, be able to dredge up the answer before I do.

The Paris/Alexander business is slightly different, I think, because he was originally named Paris, but after being abandoned - supposedly to death - but saved and reared by the Idean peasants, it was they, I think, who gave him the name Alexander. Therefore, when he was reclaimed by Priam, he did indeed have two names.

ATB

[val]

About the Pyrrhus/Neoptolemus name issue, searching through the English and Spanish Wikipedia I gather this info. Apparently, during Achilles time posing as a woman to escape from the Trojan War he assumed the name Pyrrha; so as his son was conceived during this time he adopted the male version of that name, that would be Pyrrhus, until the age of twelve.
When he took control of the myrmidons in battle (at a very young age) he soon gain popular admiration because of his bravery and was renamed Neoptolemus which means -¿young warrior-¿.

[Paralus]

Then again perhaps they ought to have fought it out in single combat as our Homeric Darius had among the Cadusians. A sign of true heroism. Hmm. I think that sort of stuff is left best for writers of fiction and lovers of romance.

G'day Smitty.

I believe - if memory serves - Pyrrhus actually did fight it out in single combat with Demetrius Polircetes' general and bested him. One of the reasons the Greeks thought him Alexander like and christenened him with the moniker "the Eagle" or some such.

Buggered if I remeber. I'm at the office and so can't check it.

[jan]

Seriously, I do believe that King Darius behaved according to Persian tradition, not Greek or Macedonian tradition so that the act of saving and protecting himself was the first action ofa survivor. I agree with Marcus here. At first glance, I had thought Darius to be a coward too, but I have reconsidered that hearing the arguments of how he had to save his crown from disaster.

I do not belileve that the Greeks exaggerated this story to embellish Alexander but told it truthfully, and as everyone knows, King Darius is so happy to leave his Kingdom to a man such as Alexander. That is hearsay also, but then what isn't in the cause of this historical study. These were the words that were conveyd to Alexander.

Again, historically, whether at Thermopylae or at Issus, Persian Kings often were spectators rather than particpants in Battle. They expected to win, so why bother to do anything but watch a great romp!

[Madog]

Imagine if Darius and Alexander had decided to settle their buisness in single combat at Gaugamela instead of letting their armies engage. Would Alexander have allowed it?
I think he would probably would have liked to duel with Darius, seeing as he was a big fan of the Illiad and that he emulated Achilles.

You can only imagine the amount of lives that would have been saved if they had resorted to single combat of the Heroic age.

[marcus]

Imagine if Darius and Alexander had decided to settle their buisness in single combat at Gaugamela instead of letting their armies engage. Would Alexander have allowed it?
I think he would probably would have liked to duel with Darius, seeing as he was a big fan of the Illiad and that he emulated Achilles.

You can only imagine the amount of lives that would have been saved if they had resorted to single combat of the Heroic age.

Hi Madog.

Indeed! And who wants to speculate about what would have happened had Darius won ...

ATB

[dean]

Hello,

ummmm... Darius and Alexander in single combat. It would be like seeing Tyson at Madison square garden.(when he was in shape)- I mean quite a "rumble in the jungle"

Alexander would have leapt at the chance or so Arrian would have us believe- this would be the ultimate- Hector and Achiles cobbat- But no doubt Athena wouldn't have let anything happen to Alexander either!!!!!


Best wishes,
Dean

[Madog]

It would have been quite the sight, I'd say Alexander would have won seeing as how tough he really was.

[dean]

Hello,

Yes it would be an interesting fight to the death.

But there is just one little problem.

The single combat of Darius, mentioned in Diodorus, occurred during the reign of the Great King Occhus, some 25 years or so earlier-

Darius, at the time of his battles at Issus and Gaugamela- when he "scarpered"- was around 50 years old and no spring chicken- he certainly wouldn't have been any match for Alexander who was about 25 years younger.

I guess you may counter that Parmenio was gone 60 and was still raising the sarissa if you will excuse my French- but 25 years can make a difference-

His age, however, I believe, has nothing to do with him "running scared" off the battlefield- I think, had he been 25 years younger, he would have done just about the same-

and you?????

Best regards,
Dean

[Paralus]

Darius, at the time of his battles at Issus and Gaugamela- when he "scarpered"- was around 50 years old and no spring chicken- he certainly wouldn't have been any match for Alexander who was about 25 years younger.

I guess you may counter that Parmenio was gone 60 and was still raising the sarissa if you will excuse my French- but 25 years can make a difference-

His age, however, I believe, has nothing to do with him "running scared" off the battlefield- I think, had he been 25 years younger, he would have done just about the same-

Age is one thing, intent is another. As with all fights, it is the intent - for want of a better word - that mattered. Most were foreced by circumstance to fight, others (such as Alexander I believe) actively sought it in the way that I seek a decent feed and accompanying red!. Another way of seeing it would be that to Parmenion another several hundred or thousand pinned on the pikes of his troops (and his own weapon) was just another day doing what he does well.

We really don't know about Darius though.

[cynisca]

Greetings,
Jona Lendering has taken a Persian persepective by studying Babylonian cuneiform tablets which hold relevant information....these are his views on this matter
Gaugamela
He thinks that Darius's men started to flee the battle after heavy losses....and the outcome of the battle was already fortold, by the astronomical signs....
We do not know at what point Darius left the battle and it looks as though parts of of the script are illegible or missing.....
There is a link to the text of the Cuneiform plus it's translation on Jona's page......
The fact that Sisygambis seemed to have turned her back on her son, gives food for thought however...
regards
Cynisca