Alexander the Great

[marcus]

"On the other hand his discriptions of foreign peoples Egyptians Sythian ect are suspect since they were obviously taken from a Greek perspective."Well, they're not "suspect" inasmuch as they are incredibly useful, giving us an idea of current Greek attitudes. Granted, they are less reliable as true ethnographic (or other) portraits; but hardly "suspect".ATBMarcus

[jim]

Hail Efstathios, Hammond has the best interpitation that I heard so far.The 1st Greek speakers he associates with Mycenane spoke a crude Ionic dialect.Archeology does verify that they came from North Western Greece.He also states that they were small in numbers relive to the native pre Greek populaion.Chances are they mixed with local peoples and adopted local customs (pleasgic).Thus the they probably spoke a diolect different from the later Dorians.Notice Herodotus uses Ionic - Pelasgians ( we know Ionians were Greek)With comming of another Greek people the Dorians all pre Greek elements were pretty much wiped out.The early Athenians thus were a Ionic (Greek) Pelasgic mix.I beleive that the Goddess Athena was a pre Greek diety in origin.Athens was spared from the Dorian invasions thus perhaps retained some pre Greek influence.

[Lyngos]

Indeed the Pelasgians were NOT INITIALLY part of the Hellenes and/or the Hellenic Ethnos/Nation.
They became Hellenized AFTER the descend of the Hellenes, (read Herakleides).Herodotus is just the beginning, Denying his History, you can deny EVERYONE's history and/or testimony. Take your pick.However what speaks in favor of Herodotus, are the later Historians like Strabo, Livy, etc.etc., but above everything else, the coins and the scriptures in the marbles coming out of our lands.Hellenic, and just Hellenic are the letters on them, and later Latin and NOTHING ELSE.Wonder, why Alexander would have coined coins with Hellenic letters and would have protected, expanded, and give as present to the World not a Makedonian Civilization, but an Hellenic one.The truth is that Alexander was MORE of a Hellene than Demosthenes himself, Perikles, Solwn, and many others with mothers from Thrace of even "etaires=prostitutes" from left and right.The problem lies in the fact that modern History considers as Hellenic or Hellenism something connected with the Aegean-Minoan-Cretean civilization(s), rather than anything from the North.But even if you want to consider or not consider Herodotus a "decent" Historian, what about Thukididis and his BOOK 1-3, where clearly he is stating that the ONLY HELLENES OF THE TROJAN WAR WERE PRECISELY THE MYRMIDONES OF ACHILLES.But do you know where were they originated from?And do you know where Neoptolemus, a PURE HELLENE HIMSELF, to which relatives of him returned, after the destruction of Troy?The Myrmidones were originated from the sacred Oak Tree of DODONA.And Neoptolemus, returns to his relatives the MOLOSSIANS guess again where.........in DODONA.And gues where from Deukalion's Hellenes started their journey towards civilization........from DODONA!And guess where from the creation of the ONLY NATION KNOWN AS HELLAS, began from ........from MOSCHOPOLIS, just few miles to the North of DODONA.It is there where the land of the Hellenes was and is, and it is from there that Alexander's families from Mother and Father, had their origins.Coincidences? Too many in order to be just simple coincidences.

[Lyngos]

Do we have really ? Homer's naming of part of Thessaly as Hellas and Thukididis' references on him about the ONLY HELLENES of the Trojan War, is just part of the puzzled of the origins of the Hellenes.The Hellenes were born
1.from DEUKALION (BY PROMETHEUS),
2.from ACHILLES and his MYRMIDONES, ( by Ocean+Tethys+plus the ants from the DODONIAN SACRED OAK TREE)AND
3.from Herakles not thru the African Connection of Perseus, but by the divine intervention of Zeuss.
From Herakles we have the entire Royal cast of the HERAKLEIDES + THMENIDES.Alexander was a product of the House of Achilles (see Molossian relatives of his mother's side), and of the Royal House of Herakles and Temenus from his father's side.

[jim]

Hail lyngos,Alexander was MORE of a Hellene than Demosthenes himself, Perikles, Solwn, and many others with mothers from Thrace of even "etaires=prostitutes" from left and right. I do know Demosthenes was part Sythian I know Historian Thydicles had Thracian Ancestry. 25% of Athens was Foreign Slaves with most comming from Thrace.
Was unaware that Perikles, Solwn had Thracian ancestry.Do you have a source for that?

[jim]

Hail lyngos,Alexander was MORE of a Hellene than Demosthenes himself, Perikles, Solwn, and many others with mothers from Thrace of even "etaires=prostitutes" from left and right. I do know Demosthenes was part Sythian I know Historian Thydicles had Thracian Ancestry. 25% of Athens was Foreign Slaves with most comming from Thrace.
Was unaware that Perikles, Solwn had Thracian ancestry.Do you have a source for that?

[jim]

Hail lyngos,Alexander was MORE of a Hellene than Demosthenes himself, Perikles, Solwn, and many others with mothers from Thrace of even "etaires=prostitutes" from left and right. I do know Demosthenes was part Sythian I know Historian Thydicles had Thracian Ancestry. 25% of Athens was Foreign Slaves with most comming from Thrace.
Was unaware that Perikles, Solwn had Thracian ancestry.Do you have a source for that?

[marcus]

"25% of Athens was Foreign Slaves with most comming from Thrace."Although we should perhaps be clear that these were not "Athenians" - they were slaves. So they do not make a difference to the national/racial/linguistic/etc. identity of the Athenians.ATBMarcus

[jim]

So they do not make a difference to the national/racial/linguistic/etc. identity of the Athenians Marcus I agree with you.However prominent Athenians were known to have Thracian or Sythian Cocubines.Demostanes was a Sythian on his Mothers side Thucydides had Thracian ancestry.Of course this does not make them less Athenian culturally ethnicly. I think Lyngos is trying to say that ATG ancestry was more noble Aristrocatic Hellenic then some of the leading Athenians.

[marcus]

I agree, Jim, about the Thracian/Scythian concubines etc. I just wanted to make sure we were all clear that the 25% of the population that was 'barbarian' didn't mean that they were considered to be Greek/Athenian.CheersMarcus

[jim]

Hail Marcus, Sorry about the multiple post 3x must of hit the button several times.

[marcus]

I just thought you were *really* trying to make a point! :-)CheersMarcus