Celtic Dagger

[dean]

Hi- did the celtic dagger have any symbolic meaning? (I refer to the one used to dispatch Philip II)(5 brownie points) Thanks and best wishes. Dean

[ruthaki]

The Celts were noted for their excellent iron work: swords, daggers etc. And a lot of trade went on between those northern nations. I don't think it was 'symbolic' at all.Just happened Pausanius owned such a dagger.

[marcus]

A good question that I've always wondered about, too! I think you're probably right, Ruth, that there wasn't any particular significance. However, I wonder why the sources mention that it was Celtic specifically? All the bestMarcus

[Tre]

Hi Marcus!Wasn't there something carved on the hilt that connected to the oracle's prediction to Philip regarding the Persian campaign? You know, that 'The Bull is Wreathed' thing...I don't have my books with me at the office but you did say you have such lovely bookcases :-)Regards,Tre

[marcus]

Maybe there was, Tre. I do indeed have lovely bookcases, filled with books (no less) but I am in the same position as you, being at work at the moment. In fact, it's even worse, because I work in London but all my books are at my flat in Nottingham, which I don't get to until the weekend! I know, it sounds a bit like "the dog ate my homework", but it *is* true :-)All the bestMarcus

[dean]

Hi and thanks very much for your answering my question- I am really am very curious about this- and if you remember at the weekend, and have time, I would really appreciate it! Cheers, Dean.

[ruthaki]

Did the dog eat your homework?
I'm very much interested in the oracle about the wreathed bull. I've read of that before but not in connection with the dagger, and I can't recall exactly what the context of it was. So I'll be waiting for you to get home and get that homework away from the dog! grrrr.

[marcus]

Hi Ruth,I never actually tried that excuse when I was at school, largely due to the fact that I don't have a dog and never have had one!If I recall correctly, Philip sent a messenger to Delphi shortly before he sent his advance force into Asia Minor, asking for an oracle on the forthcoming campaign. Everyone, of course, thought that the response was a good prophecy for the campaign, with the bull being Persia and the sacrificer being Philip... but with hindsight the bull turned out to be Philip and the sacrificer Pausanias.But some investigation at the weekend will hopefully tell us whether the dagger had anything to do with it.All the bestMarcus

[dean]

Hi, I had a cat but it never ate my homework. I look forward at the weekend to reading the answer, Dean.

[agesilaos]

The oracle is in Diodoros XVI 92 ii and Pausanias VIII 7 vi and reads 'Wreathed is the Bull. All is done. There is also the one who will smite him.' The Greek being, 'esteptai men ho tauros, ekhai telos, estin ho thysorn.' The celtic dagger is ho Keltikeen machairan, so there is not any link, however I have always thought a machaira was the same as a kopis, a weapon not unlike a Ghurka khukri more Thracian than Celtic.I think the only symbolism here is the source's desire to seem accurate by the use of detail.

[marcus]

Ah, well, ahem... slight problem there, I'm afraid. I didn't get a chance at the weekend to peruse my books for more insight into this question. It's a very poor show on my part, I know. Unfortunately, at the only time I might have been able to sit in the 'library' (ie. my cellar) I went instead to Southwell Workhouse, a recently opened National Trust property. Very interesting, but 19th century social history ain't really a patch on 4th century BC Mediterranean history! :-)So apologies to all those who were waiting with baited breath and slavering jaws for the definitive answer on the Celtic dagger... 'cos I haven't got it.All the best (hanging his head in shame)Marcus

[dean]

No prob's Marcus, hope you enjoyed your visit at the weekend, Regards, Dean.

[wmp]

Marcus - I had a look at my bookshelves (which
are not terrible extensive, given I inhabit a
crumbling 1840s villa & can't put too much
weight on my second story floors!) and came up
with this:"Those who drew the sword [a short
broad-bladed Celtic sword] from Philip's side
saw that its ivory hilt bore the carved image of a
chariot, and some remembered a warning to
'beware the chariot' that he had received from
the oracle of Trophonius."Peter Green, "Alexander of Macedon, 356-323
B.C. A Historical Biography", (University of
California, repr. 1992) p.105.Green seems to cite his source as Badian's
essay on the death of Philip in "Phoenix" 17....I don't think I've come up with the definitive
answer, but at least it's getting there!yours,wmpPS the dog never ate my homework, but the
goldfish ate my contact lens...

[marcus]

Well, that does appear to be the closest to an answer we've got - top research skills!Now all we have to do is find out where Badian got his info on it...All the bestMarcus

[Petre]

You imply the Celts were "northern nations". As far as I know, Celts originate on the Upper Danube river, which is Central Europe not "northern". Any link Celts-Northern Nations is just a guess.
The Metal Era in Europe originated in Lower Danube area, in the Carpathian mountains of Dacia. The Iron Age could have sprang from Upper Danube river area, Central Europe.
The civilization of ancient Europe is tightly linked to Danube river, lower, middle and upper, and not to the Northern areas, cold, unhospitable and unlikly to create any "era" of any sort, metal or not.