..at the oracle of Siwah

[Atha]

Guys,I have another query on another topic not much discussed due to lack of evidence. ATG, siezed with a longing to go to the great oracle of Hammon at Siwah, was said to have received a message that pleased him. This was not communicated to anybody other than that he would discuss it with Olympias, his mother, upon his return to Macedon. With his untimely death we will never know what was really revealed to him (although we could take a good guess).A hypothetical proposal: If, say, one of the priests at the oracle was to document what was communicated:a. what language would it have been in?
b. would it have been written on papyrus, or, given that Egypt was restricting its export and use in favour of parchment, would it have been the latter?
c. how much later after the death of ATG was the Great Library of Alexandria meant to have been constructed??On a separate note, how upset were the Egyptians with the Persians for substituting their ox-god for an ass? Was this a significant cause of tension between the two nations?Thanks.Regards,
Atha

[Nicator]

I'll try to take a crack at some of these, but really can't say for sure. The main cause of tension between the two nations appears to have been the cruel treatment of native religions in general, and the enforcement of a foreign religion. The sacred bull was slaughtered...a terrible sacrilege. The Persians were hated for this, and welcomed Alexander as a liberator, honoring him as the Great Pharoah. I don't think the library (at least the first incarnation of it, as there were something like 6 altogether before the last one was torched for good), was necessarily planned until well after his death and the firm establishment of Ptolemy's reign as the king of Alexandria. I would bet that the language would have been strictly hieroglyphic, unless it was meant for a greek audience. As far as the restriction of Papyrus in favor of parchment, that wouldn't have happened for some time, perhaps decades after ATG's death. I hope this helps some, but admittedly, this is not my area.
later Nicator

[ruthaki]

I recently read (while doing research) about all the various phases the Library of Alexandria went through. I'd like to know myself when it was actually construced (in Ptolemy's time).As for parchment...I understand it wasn't used for quite some time after Alexander. At his time it would have been papyrus, wax tablets, and perhaps skins?? this is partly speculation but again, I'd like someone to clarify this. (God, the research is never-ending!)

[Nicator]

"(God, the research is never-ending!)"I feel your pain...believe me, and it's extreme! But knowledge is more than just a reward...it was meant to change the world. I recall reading in Michael Grant's "From Alexander to Cleopatra" (a great book by the way) something about the competition between Athens and Alexandria where the technology of Parchment gave the Alexandrian philosophers (and other people of a learned nature) a distinct advantage. I want to say it occured sometime around 250 BC, but again, it's been a few years since I read it. later Nicator

[amyntoros]

I have Grant's book but I couldn't find anything in a quick skim though it. There is this in Pliny:Volume IV, Book XIII. 68 - 70 We have not yet touched on the marsh-plants nor the shrubs that grow by rivers. But before we leave Egypt we shall also describe the nature of papyrus, since our civilization or at all events our records depend very largely on the employment of paper. According to Marcus Varro we owe even the discovery of paper to the victory of Alexander the Great, when he founded Alexandria in Egypt, before which time paper was not used. First of all people used to write on palm-leaves and then on the back of certain trees, and afterwards folding sheets of lead began to be employed for official muniments, and then also sheets of linen or tablets of wax for private documents; for we find in Homer that the use of writing-tablets existed even before the Trojan period, but when he was writing even the land itself which is now thought of as Egypt did not exist as such, while now paper grows in the Schennytic and Saitic nomes of Egypt, the land having been subsequently heaped up by the Nile, inasmuch as Homer wrote that the island of Pharos, which is now joined to Alexandria by a bridge, was twenty-four hours distance by sailing ship from the land. Subsequently, also according to Varro, when owing to the rivalry between King Ptolemy and King Eumenes about their libraries Ptolemy suppressed the export of paper, parchment was invented at Pergamum; and afterwards the employment of the material on which the immortality of human beings depends spread indiscriminatelyFrankly, I'm surprised that papyrus wasn't used at all by the Greeks until after Alexander's conquest. That seems so unlikely, doesn't it - I mean, there *was* trade with Egypt before Alexander, wasn't there? Perhaps papyrus just wasn't part of it?Best regards,Amyntoros

[marcus]

I agree, and as far as I'm aware the Greeks *did* use papyrus before 331 BC. I'm not sure I have any proof, as such - perhaps it's just that, with the amount of trade that was going on, I can't believe they *didn't*!ATBMarcus

[amyntoros]

And you are right! Someone transposed my quote to Alexandriaeschate with further questions and Jeanne answered, assuring us that the Greeks *did* use papyrus prior to Alexander. Makes sense to me as I can't imagine all their books being written on linen which was the only other reasonable alternative.Guess Pliny had too much confidence in Marcus Varro!ATBAmyntoros

[Nicator]

What is:"while now paper grows in the Schennytic and Saitic nomes of Egypt"Is it some kind of tree? Lost me here?Nicator

[Athanasios]

Thanks all for the detailed responses so far - seems to be that the extent of research you are undertaking and knowledge gathered is overwhelming! What are you all - historians, students, lecturers?!I continue to ask questions and appreciate your responses with special references. Apologies if some of my questions are basic...I approach this subject matter as someone with a passing interest!So, assuming the [written] word in Egypt was hieroglyphic, what language would have the priests [at Siwah] responded to Alex. questions? If in anc. Egyptian, would either Alex. have taken a translator or would that have been offered as a service by the oracle? Or, given its status within the Hellenic world as one of the three great oracles alongside Dodona and Delphi, would anc. Greek would have been spoken by the priests?
Also, I have read that the oracle would answer questions in mono-syllabi. Any truth in this statement (other than any alleged reference made to him as the son of Ammon)? How much of the 'answer' would be left to the interpretation and ellaboration of the priests??Regards,
Atha

[amyntoros]

The quote is from an 1855 translation of Pliny and the word "paper" is used interchangeably with the word "papyrus". Sorry about the confusion. :-)ATBAmyntoros

[ScottOden]

The ancient Egyptians generally didn't use hieroglyphics on papyrus. It would have been a cursive variant called hieratic (the final stage of written hieroglyphs was called Demotic, but I'm not sure exactly when it came into widespread use . . . I don't have my reference books close at hand). Most copies of texts like 'the Book of the Dead' are written in hieratic, if you're curious as to what it looks like.Hope this helps ;)Scott Oden

[amyntoros]

***Also, I have read that the oracle would answer questions in mono-syllabi. Any truth in this statement (other than any alleged reference made to him as the son of Ammon)? How much of the 'answer' would be left to the interpretation and ellaboration of the priests??*** Less than monosyllabic responses, actually. Curtius and Diodorus describe a large golden boat carried on the shoulders of (80) men and as it moved around, supposedly directed by Ammon, the answers were given. Strabo (17.I.43) adds that the answers were GÇ£not given, as at Delphi and at Branchidae, in words, but chiefly by nods and signs, as in Homer . . GÇ£ Therefore, youGÇÖre right in thinking that much of the answer would be left to the interpretation and elaboration of the priests, leaving me amused at DiodorusGÇÖ account where the prophet, in answer to AlexanderGÇÖs question of whether all the murderers of his father had been punished, cried out GÇ£"Silence! There is no mortal who can plot against the one who begot him. All the murderers of Philip, however, have been punished.GÇ¥ Bit of a fancy interpretation based on a few GÇ£nods and signsGÇ¥ donGÇÖt you think? Many believe it was a Yes GÇô No type of oracle. You asked your question and depending on which way the boat moved, the answer was yes or no. I canGÇÖt help thinking of it as a huge ancient version of a Ouija board! Best regards, Amyntoros

[Athanasios]

Thanks, Amyntoros.The boat sounds familiar, perhaps I had read it without registering...A boat out in the middle of the Sahara, mmm, I knew the Nile and surrounds were more humid then than present day, but strange nonethless. Yes, sounds like a giant Ouija board, which would also beg to ask how it became so popular and reputable?! Another thing that strikes me, based on the accounts of Arrian and Plutarch (although these were written several centuries after his death and could be argued that they were as far removed from his life as you or I are today) is how easily Alexander was pursuaded by signs. It appears that these signs, which littered his short, but dramatic life, greatly shaped his decision-making process...Regards,
Atha

[amyntoros]

Hi Athanasios,Siwah was the home of the most famous GÇÿoracleGÇÖ of Ammon, however, he was one of the oldest gods of Egypt and there were temples to him at Karnak, (Egyptian) Thebes, and other cities. Also a few in Greece itself! Now IGÇÖm no expert on Egyptian history or religion but I believe that boats had great significance and I do know that representations have been found in tombs. I think that itGÇÖs all related to the Nile which was understandably considered the source of all life, so itGÇÖs not really that unusual to find an image of a boat at Siwah. As for Siwah's popularity, weGÇÖre told by at least one historian (canGÇÖt remember which, offhand) that AmmonGÇÖs oracle was infallible in ancient times so I guess that explains it. :-)Yes, Alexander was greatly influenced by signs, dreams and auguries GÇô enough so that the Roman writers believed him to be untowardly superstitious. However, in AlexanderGÇÖs day I donGÇÖt think he would have been considered as such. Strabo (17.1.43) says that the Greeks were great believers in divination and oracles.Best regards,Amyntoros