Pirate tale from Augustine

[karen]

St. Augustine is quoted:"Indeed, that was an apt and true reply which was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride, "What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it with a great fleet art styled emperor."Question -- did he get this from a currently-extant source, and if so, which? Searched Susan's site, searched the forum and archives here, no luck.Companionably,
Karen

[amyntoros]

Hi Karen,The only other reference that I know of is in Cicero and exists only as a fragment. Here it is with the translator's footnote:Cicero - De Republica and De Legibus (The Republic and Laws).Translated by Clinton Walker Keyes. Harvard University Press, 1961The Republic III. (XIV) 24. A passage of considerable length is lost, of which the following fragment may be a part. ". . . for when he was asked what wickedness drove him to harass the sea with his one pirate galley, he replied: "The same wickedness that drives you to harass the whole world."**The reference is to Alexander the Great. St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei IV, 4. 25) tells this story of Alexander and the pirate, which he probably took from Cicero. :-)Best regards,Amyntoros

[karen]

Before I posted the question I was thinking, "Maybe all I need to do is email Amyntoros" but I thought I should give other pothosians a shot...Thanks! I was hoping it would be in one of the closer sources, as that would be better evidence that it actually happened. I want to put it in my novel, because it's such a good point. Maybe I will anyway. (Artistic license...)Gratefully,
Karen

[amyntoros]

You made me laugh, Karen. Now I feel like Hermione Granger with her hand waving in the air! Actually, I only knew the answer because I had found the Cicero quote first, with it's reference to St. Augustine, and then went searching for the latter. :-)Go ahead and use some artistic license - I guarantee that Augustine used plenty himself! This quote reminds of the other one about the patch of earth that Alexander stood upon. Both of them, in a way, have the intent to remind Alexander that he's just a man like everyone else.All the best,Amyntoros

[Efstathios]

The greeks had a very popular habit.After a person had died they used to make up events about his life that hadn't actually hapened.That,in order to present some oppinions about how they saw some matters concerning those people.For example there was this story about Thalis that fell into a well as he was observing the stars.One of his servants was supposed to have said that "he knew everything about the sky but nothing about what lied beneath him". That story is probably fabricated though.It is actually very inprobable that Thalis was constantly glancing at the sky as he was walking and did not watch his step.It is more easier to stare at the sky when you are still rather when you are walking. Some of these stories though may have actually happened.In ALexander's case there are some stories that were sprea d after his death and although they are very interesting, most of them are probably fabricated. If you are to use such a story in a novel,then try to asses the facts.For example,how would Alexander respond if a pirate came to him and said that thing?Would he respond with anger?With laughter?Would he respect that oppinion? Even the story with Diogenis is said to be fabricated,so we cannot be sure if a disrespectfull reaction would be tolerated by Alexander.Though,the story about Diogenis may be aiming at that point.To show to the people that Alexander was actually tolerant in such ocassions and sometimes admired those people for their acts and for what they said. So these kind of stories should be used with caution after examining what the story is aiming for.

[azara]

Hi, everybody!
If I had to make a bet, IGÇÖd say the anecdote was a CiceroGÇÖs invention, which gave him the opportunity of moralizing with a bit of irony. His target, in my opinion, were the Alexander imitators who were upsetting the Roman republic, Caesar in the first place, who (in 52-51 b.C., when Cicero rewrote De Republica) was conquering Gaul and whom the Senate wanted to bring to trial for violating the GÇ£law of nationsGÇ¥. So Cicero found it convenient to forget that the pirates, prior to PompeyGÇÖs intervention, had starved Rome almost to death.
The said Pompey was another would-be Alexander. Plutarch writes:
GÇ£His hair swept back in a kind of wave from the forehead and the configuration of his face round the eyes gave him a melting look, so that he was supposed . . . to resemble the statues of King Alexander." (Plutarch Life of Pompey, 2).
My best greetings Azara

[agesilaos]

I have been looking into Issos and the concomitant naval campaign, for another long piece and there is actually an instance when Alexander meets a pirate; it is at Arrian III 2 iv the man was Aristonikos of Methymna and he was captured in Khios by a trick; he was told by the locals that Hegelochos' fleet was actually Pharnabazos'. He was taken to Alexander in Egypt possibly at the building site of Alexandria.The dialogue if it was in any early source might suit Kleitarchos, being rhetorical and not pro-Alexander,he also seems to have exaggerated the roles of various Greek characters and he was very popular in Cicero's time, indeed we can be certain Cicero had read him since he complains of his style in one of his critical essays. This is all circumstantial and it does not alter the fact that he did, probably, choose the story for its contempory resonances.

[amyntoros]

It's still being used today for its "contemporary resonance." I have a registered search for news references to Alexander; just the other day a reference to Alexander and the pirate turned up in a speech on War and Morality given by the Mises institute (the research and educational center of classical liberalism, libertarian political theory, and the Austrian School of economics!!!). Won't give the URL as it would bring politics on to the forum, but here's the quote."St. Augustine might have been the first to observe that the moral status of Alexander the Great's conquests was more egregious than the pirate's depredations. The pirate molests the sea, but the emperor molests the world."Interesting that the speaker obviously expects his audience to be familiar with the quote.Best regards,Amyntoros