Thebes Only Normal at the time

[kenny]

I would like to take issue with the destruction of Thebes and why Alexander has been brandishes as it been an atrocity.I would argue that it was not out of the ordinary and nothing new. And as some argue that the dropping of the Nukes in Japan saved many more killings.It is exactly right to say that throughout centuries before Alexander the Greek city states were bent on war and if the could I am sure would have gone as far as Alexander. The fact was that during the Peleponese wars the sieges were basically seasonal. Out for parts of the year then back behind the walls for the vital harvests.It was only because Alexanders and Philips war machine was all year round and didnt need to stop and would press the advantage to chase and destroy out right vivtory?
Alexander only did to Thebes what they had tried to do to each other por centuries and its time historians stopped outlinning Alexanders as an example or as an atrocity. I would argue as with Hirishima did actually stop the City State warfare so in the long run saved lives?
Kenny

[abm]

-in the time of Philip and Alexander warfare equally stopped during the winter-the destruction of Thebes was not necessary and, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it certainly is not the right way to end a war. The point is, actually, that wars simply shouldn't start. And although Alexander did not start the revolt that led to the destruction of Thebes, he and his father had started a lot of other wars.

[jan]

Hi Kenny,
In The Learning Channel's Ancient Warriors is a section discussing the Macedonians. This is a very interesting piece of film which discusses the siege at Thebes in great detail. It shows the equipment used, explains how the engineers designed the two towers which straddled the causeway or mole which was built by the hardy Macedonians to invade Tyre. This particular documentary does not belittle Alexander for his endurance and determination to take Thebes, but rather explains why it is that it was so important that Alexander win this victory. You really must see it somehow. It was released in 1992, I believe, and I have the copy right now myself. I have been trying to preserve the bust of Alexander which is so special to me and have (like Alexander at that impt. battle) managed to do so. Finally!

[marcus]

Jan, are you talking about Thebes or Tyre? Your post *reads* as if you're mixing the two up.All the bestMarcus

[jan]

Hi Marcus, Thanks, I thought about that later, were we talking about Thebes or Tyre? It is Tyre that I am discussing, and the both are quite similar in terms of total annihilation. Sorry about that. I meant Tyre! not Thebes. But the battle that has always set the pace for Alexander is Charonea where he destroyed the entire Sacred Band.He is consistent to the end in my pov. He always succeeds in destroying his opponent totally and completely. I don't see that as any sign of degeneration. I believe that he was consistent to the end.

[kenny]

Jan hailFair point you have made. I outlined Thebes as on and on similar lines Tyre also. As the anti Alexanders use these and one or two other occasions to underline Alexander the atrocious.I have the beliefe they all served a perpose and some were brought upon themselves.Alexander gage Tyre ample opportunity to see sense and save themselves. THey chose to fight with the provocative action of Crucifying Alexanders messengers from the Tyrian walls.Further in the siege they antagonised the Macedonians by pooring burning sand down there armour. Now is it just me that thinks the Macedonians and Alexander got a little pissed with these actions.Alexander just didnt turn up attack Tyre and dragged the inhabitants off. It was a long hard slog for Alexander and his me. The rage was obviously gonna come out.EWven the Killing of Clietus was an aaaaalcohol fueled argument that got out of hand with the aid ofd readily available weapons some one was bound to get wasted.Kenny

[Efstathios]

It does not have any meaning to try and justify everything.Alexander destroyed Tyre because they pissed him off as Kennyx well said.These things happen.Philip may have done even worse things if he was in Alexander's shoes.
As for Thebes i do not believe that Alexander wanted this result.Dont forget that the massacres were made by the fokaeans and Plateans who were enemies with the Thebeans and Alexander could not control them at the particular time when they entered Thebes.
Plus,Alexander asked "Amfictionia" (the alliance) to decide of Thebes' fate.And Amfictionia decided for it's complete destruction (due to Thebes being with The Persians during the Persian wars).I do not think that Alexander actually forced the aliance to make such a decision.

[kenny]

Efstathios HailI commend your answer and indeed I dont condone everything Alexander did I am more thanb certain he had a ruthless vicious streak In the game of war you have to be?As you rationaled with your point with Thebes. And Its also worth pointing out that the Thebans had actually killed some Macedonians stationed there. However you have rationalised and balanced the arguments.The Alexander bashers just jump on these incidents and drill the opinion it was an atrocity plain and simple no arguements either way.I was one who believed Alexander had a hand in the death of Darius or indeed it served him better than to have him alive. I dont discard Alexander from Philips death even though I love Alexander I cant swear he wasnt involved.However I will try to balance an issue raised with Alexander instead of allopw him to be condemned right out by people who have a problem with our guy.Kenny

[marcus]

That's OK - your post read as if you were talking about Tyre, but it was therefore confusing as Kenny had started on about Thebes.ATBMarcus

[stan]

For Alexander's entire reign, he always first gave his opponents the opportunity to meet his terms, which were always generous. But he was harsh to those who broke their agreements.Thebes broke its treaty. When the city had been defeated, Alexander called for a meeting of the Hellenic League to decide the fate of Thebes. No doubt he knew what the outcome would be, and could have prevented it if he had chosen. Athens did not attend the meeting, which was then dominated by the towns closer to Thebes. These towns had long been oppressed by Thebes, and saw this as their chance to end the oppression forever. So they voted to burn Thebes to the ground. And Alexander allowed them to carry this out, except that he preserved as a memorial the house where the poet Pindar had lived. Alexander and his troops did not participate in the destruction. You can read the story in Book 1 of Arrian.As you may have observed, the "Alexander community" has become polarized, including the professional scholars. The Alexander worshippers don't want to acknowledge anything bad about him, and the Alexander bashers don't want to acknowledge anything good about him (except maybe that he was a good military strategist). So now we really have to do a lot of work to try to get past all the polemics.

[stan]

For Alexander's entire reign, he always first gave his opponents the opportunity to meet his terms, which were always generous. But he was harsh to those who broke their agreements.Thebes broke its treaty. When the city had been defeated, Alexander called for a meeting of the Hellenic League to decide the fate of Thebes. No doubt he knew what the outcome would be, and could have prevented it if he had chosen. Athens did not attend the meeting, which was then dominated by the towns closer to Thebes. These towns had long been oppressed by Thebes, and saw this as their chance to end the oppression forever. So they voted to burn Thebes to the ground. And Alexander allowed them to carry this out, except that he preserved as a memorial the house where the poet Pindar had lived. Alexander and his troops did not participate in the destruction. You can read the story in Book 1 of Arrian.As you may have observed, the "Alexander community" has become polarized, including the professional scholars. The Alexander worshippers don't want to acknowledge anything bad about him, and the Alexander bashers don't want to acknowledge anything good about him (except maybe that he was a good military strategist). So now we really have to do a lot of work to try to get past all the polemics.

[ruthaki]

stan, thanks for that excellent answer.
Yes, Thebes was rebelling for a long time and given a chance to co-operate but didn't. So they were punished.

[jan]

Hi Kenny, and others, Yes, I am sorry that I was thinking of Tyre when you are discussing Thebes. And I agree that Alexander gave Thebes the chance to surrender and to do obeisance, but since they didn't he had no choice but to impose his will. Such is the law in that day and age! To the victor goes the spoils. Alexander is the model for the game of Risk, if you ask me.