Why Not a God?

[iskander_32]

Comrades With regard to Clietus accusing Alexander thinking himself a God,,,Then Alexander replied why not?In reality and comparisons to others that lay claim to be devine Jesus, Ilijah Mohamed indeed in comparisons why not indeed.I have view points with divinity or maybe a higher power making some people shine throughout the history of mankind,, I accept maybe he was no god but as Ptolemy stated in the movie,,He thought Alexander as close to a gos as could be.Christians accept without any proof at all Christ divine and the son of god, I say with Alexanders credentials and achievements there is arguably a stronger case of factual events that tell me Alexander was getting divine help from somewhere.For me there is no proof for Jesus only stories and miracles said by his buddfies then later wrote down with no historical substance.So in a way I ask Porthonians,, Was Alexander divine whatever we feel that means and if your answer is no I say as Alexander did,,, "And why not"?Kenny

[yiannis]

Why not a God indeed?!
In the mindset of the time, one could "become" God by performing extraordinary deeds. And what could be more extraordinary that the total destruction of the Persian empire and the conquest of the whole known world?!!!
Surelly Theseus or Castor & Polux (Polydeukis) or even Herakles did not perform anything to surpass this!

[marcus]

Hi Yiannis,I've been struggling with this question ever since Kenny posted it. Good question, Kenny!First of all, we have to make a distinction between our modern mindset, especially as it was born out of monotheism, and the ancient mindset.However, was the question in Alexander's time more about whether Alexander should receive divine honours in his lifetime or after his death? That appears to be the real issue, in my mind, considering the objections to honouring him in that way during his lifetime (viz Callisthenes argument with Anaxarchus in Arrian Bk 4; whether it was true or Arrian's rhetoric isn't massively important, I think).I do think we should be very careful, if we are to consider whether he was a god according to our mindset, about what a 'god' is. All the bestMarcus

[iskander_32]

Definition of a God.All powerful,Indestructable, None stoppable, Power over minds,the list goes on.Alexander was undefeated in any type of siege warfare, Alexander joined Islands to the mainlands and bridged huge ravines before Bulldozers and JCB.Alexanders super human endurance carried him from one end of the known globe to the other, Alexander charmed conquered nations and his normal kin folk with a god like charisma.No single human being before or since has achieved sop much with so few in such a relatively small time,,,Qoute Ptolemy "Alexander was as near to been a god than any other person.I may be a little controversial,, Christ achieved his post by way of clver oratory and the fundamentalist money makers who use Christianity as a nice little earner since Christ and his apostles claimed him to be a son of god.Alexander Proved he was something very special equal to what god may be.RegardsKenny

[marcus]

I suppose that, in our modern world, the concept of a god (whether or not we choose to believe) involves an omniscience and omnipresence, and omnipotency that immediately disqualifies Alexander. That's why it's such a difficult question to answer.I don't really know enough about how the Greeks actually viewed their deities to know how far Alexander *actually* qualified - I can't disagree with much of your description, but was that really sufficient for pre-death godhead?As you can see, I'm really sitting on the fence here, because I'm not sure I can answer one way or another! :-)All the bestMarcus

[Linda]

A god is, by definition, supernatural. Now, I am not making comparisons with Christian or other gods, in any case, as I don't believe in gods, but their is no evidence Alexander was supernatural. Not then, not now. Pretty near it, maybe, but there is nothing which is not believable. Blood, not ichor..As Marcus says, in the context of his times be could be considered for godhead - but the Hephaestion was awardd divine hero status (is that like a saint?)However, if the definition of a god is having enough people (or even one person) believe you to be so, well, then he is a god. You might even get a tick box in the census.

[marcus]

Hi Linda,Did the Greeks have a concept of the 'supernatural', because as you quite rightly say, this would be an important factor. Marcus

[susan]

Damis the Spartan said, when the question of divine honours was under debate: 'Since Alexander desires to be a god, let him be a god.'
And Demosthenes said "All right, make him the son of Zeus -- and of Poseidon too, if that's what he wants." Susan

[iskander_32]

Marcus,Suie HailRespect maybe I go too far with this thread maybe into the obnsurd,,, Its only I see sop much past and before with religion and the trouble it causes,, Also there figure heads.Its just my opinion thats all it is,, so called religious followers put up there teddy bears banners and follow them blindly. Im not religious either only from time to time Christian friends question my following of Alexander , then the attempts at trying to convert me begin.The strange thing is religious preachers only listen to what they want to hear,, And dismiss my arguement which is this. If a Christian preaches to me about there guy then I argue that Alexander did more to attain such a mention.Hail Porthonians,, Maybe out of the Porthonians I an a little extreme Ive even been accused of having a wierd obsesion,,, Alas my wife and children are very well brought up and happy with open minds I dont indoctrinate with anything I beleive,,, I have a faith that is like religious with Alexander but its personal to myself.Kenny

[iskander_32]

Marcus,Suie HailRespect maybe I go too far with this thread maybe into the obnsurd,,, Its only I see sop much past and before with religion and the trouble it causes,, Also there figure heads.Its just my opinion thats all it is,, so called religious followers put up there teddy bears banners and follow them blindly. Im not religious either only from time to time Christian friends question my following of Alexander , then the attempts at trying to convert me begin.The strange thing is religious preachers only listen to what they want to hear,, And dismiss my arguement which is this. If a Christian preaches to me about there guy then I argue that Alexander did more to attain such a mention.Hail Porthonians,, Maybe out of the Porthonians I an a little extreme Ive even been accused of having a wierd obsesion,,, Alas my wife and children are very well brought up and happy with open minds I dont indoctrinate with anything I beleive,,, I have a faith that is like religious with Alexander but its personal to myself.Kenny

[xxx]

But you miss the important part. Have you seen The Last Temptation of Christ? In that movie when Jesus asks a man who is preaching about him how he could say such things since he didn't die on the cross, the man replies it's the story that's important.Alexander died. Jesus supposedly didn't, or at least his body disappeared. That is the one thing that makes Alexander 'not' a god in the strictest sense of the word. Death means you're mortal, or rather, staying dead. As for Jesus, depends on what you believe of course. It is fascinating nonetheless that modern people scoff at Alexander thinking himself the son of Zeus (this is a debatable point and I don't personally think Alexander thought any such thing)yet have no problem with Jesus being same. It's all in the perspective I suppose

[Linda]

Ah - now I don't know if they had the concept, but supernatural is beyond or above nature, and the gods are definitely beyond the natural laws that apply to men. My definition of a god is based on western humanist philosophy, but I think it is generally accepted in most cultures that a god is someone who is not just better but has powers no man could have. It might be argued that they are part of a wider nature, and are governed by natural laws, but I dont know enough about that. The dead and risen again is a peculiarly Christian concept, although I am sure it must have some pagan echoes.

[Halil]

In truth, the dead and risen again is very pagan. It predates the Christian era considerably, maybe it's as old as the human family. Don't have time to fill in all the details but the death of the god and then the rebirth is a common thread. In several Greek mysteries, the initiates could learn how, by belief in the god or whatever, they could live again.Cheers all
Halil

[Halil]

We're getting metaphysical here and it all depends on what one considers a "god" to be, but many ancient gods were known to have a body which physically died and then the god's spirit passed on either to dwell with the other gods in whatever place gods dwelt or the god would reincarnate into another body. See beliefs of the ancient Egyptians for one, also see the deification of the Roman emperors. Some gods were worshipped while living in physical bodies (for example, Apis), others were known to inhabit physical bodies as their needs arose (eg Zeus). The idea of a god needing to be omniscient isn't in all religions...Just a few thoughts to consider.Best regards
Halil

[yiannis]

I also agree with what Halil mentions. But if you refer to the Elefsinian Mysteries, the insiders were prepared to be honoured in the underworld, not to live again.