Did Alexander know the Persian language?

[Cyrus]

Was there a translator with him when he wanted to speak with the Persians especially his Persian wives or he knew the Persian language?

[marcus]

Hi Cyrus,There's no evidence that Alexander ever learned to speak Persian. He certainly had translators, and some at least of the high-born Persians at court could speak Greek (such as Artabazus, Bagistanes). As far as his wives/mistresses were concerned, Barsine could apparently speak Greek (having been married to two Greeks previously, and having almost certainly lived in MAcedonia for some time); there's no evidence that Alexander and Roxane could speak the same language, to begin with, at least - but being able to talk to each other was not exactly a priority - although she was possibly taught Greek once they were married; and Stateira was taught to speak Greek after Alexander left her at Susa in late 331, so one can assume that she spoke a reasonable amount by the time Alexander married her in 324.All the bestMarcus

[jona]

Arrian (Anabasis 7.6.3) mentions that Peucestas was the only one of Alexander's chief officers who learned to speak Persian. The language of command in the Macedonian army was probably Greek (when Alexander shouted an order in Macedonian, he was not understood). Probably, the Iranians were expected to learn another language, not the other way round.Jona

[Steve]

It looks like the Persian and Macedonian languages shared the same roots. Persians and Macedonians speaking a bar bar barbarian language. There are numerous similarities even today, check it out for yourselves. Do not confuse the Athenians, Spartans, etc or their lingo with an all encompassing Greek language then, Koine was introduced later.

[yiannis]

Koine is a result of Attic Greek with simplified grammar. Mass in Greek Orthodox churches is even today performed in Koine.When it comes to common roots in Persian-Macedonian, I'm sure we'd all be thrilled to find about them, espesially since we have no evidence of the "Macedonian" language.
The truth is that Greek/Persian/Latin etc are all Indoeuropean languages and the ALL share common roots. Some claim this common root is Sanscrit but my understanding is that others disgree. Anyway this is a matter for linguists and I'm hardly qualified as one...

[jona]

"Anyway this is a matter for linguists and I'm hardly qualified as one..."I did consult a linguist this summer, and posted a message on this subject in August. Thanks to the Pothos Archives, here it is again:Plutarch mentions, in his description of the death of Clitus, confusion when an excited and drunk Alexander gives an order in Macedonian. The implication is that he spoke Macedonian and that orders were usually given in Greek.As I understand from the late professor Ruijgh, linguists are slowly developing a consensus on the subject of Macedonian languages that explains the inconsistencies that have made this such a nasty puzzle. It was a mistake to assume that the Macedonians spoke only one language. Like Belgians and Swiss, they were bilingual.In Philip's kingdom, two languages were spoken: Northwest Greek, now attested in a recently discovered inscription (I don't know which one and can no longer ask professor Ruijgh, who has recently passed away); and a Macedonian language that is close to ancient Phrygian and a bit less close to Greek.An example is the /ph/ in a Greek word. In Macedonian and Phrygian, this becomes /b/. So, the people called Phrygians by the Greeks, called themselves Brygians, and Alexander's father called himself Bilippos. Hephaestion's real name was Hebaistion.Personally, I would say that the consistent policy of hellenisation started by king Archelaus will have involved a linguistic element too, but there is no evidence for this hypothesis.Jona

[amyntoros]

Jona, I read this with more interest this time around as I've been reading both Strabo and Fredricksmeyer's Alexander, Midas, and the Oracle at Gordium since you last posted the message. Your linguist friend says, "In Philip's kingdom, two languages were spoken: Northwest Greek, now attested in a recently discovered inscription (I don't know which one and can no longer ask professor Ruijgh, who has recently passed away); and a Macedonian language that is close to ancient Phrygian and a bit less close to Greek." Fredricksmeyer reports on a Macedonian tradition that the Phrygians had once been
neighbors of the Macedonians, that they later emigrated to Asia and changed their name from Brigians to Phrygians. And Strabo in the Fragments following chapter 7 says in Fragment 25, "Somewhere in this neighbourhood is the mountain Bermius, which was formerly in the possession of the Briges, a Thracian nation, some of whom passed over to Asia and were called by another name, Phrygians (Phryges). Accepting this, it makes sense that the Macedonian language would have been similar to that of the Phrygians, and it is interesting that linguistics support this. Thanks for reposting. :-)Best regards,Linda Ann

[jona]

The same connection is made by Herodotus 7.73.Jona

[yiannis]

But Jona, one assuming that this hypothesis is correct, would come to the conclusion that the Macedonian kingdom was a multicultural one. Greek to the south and Phrygian to he North. Of course it became multicultural when it was extended by Philip but before that?
Or we can say, that the uniqueness of the Macedonian culture, was exactly the fusion between Hellenic & Phrygian, Paeonian & perhaps Illyrian cultures?

[jona]

This depends, in my view, on one's definition of culture. There have been social scientists who accept language as a structuring element, and not the least: Von Humboldt, Sapir, Whorff. They've argued that because we think in a language, the structure of our thoughts is shaped by language, and people speaking different languages must have different ideas about reality. If a language has no past tense, for example, people were believed to experience the past differently.There is something to be said for this. For example, the German language is better suited to express differences between various states of being than English. In German, there are two verbs, 'Sein' and 'Wesen', which are usually translated into English by 'to be' and 'to Be'. (You can imagine why so many English believe that the ontological philosophy of the German philosopher Heidegger is nonsense: the English language is unsuited.) Other way round, in Dutch you can't express the English word "team".My favorite example: in English, verbs for sexual intercourse have a direct object (it is something you do TO a person, e.g., to shag someone), whereas in Dutch, similar verbs have a form that expresses that you do it WITH someone ("vrijen met iemand"). This would go a long way to explain different sexual attitudes - if the theory were right.(Un)fortunately, it isn't. There has been a lot of psychological research, and the so-called Sapir-Whorff thesis is now considered to be outmoded. It is easy to understand why. When you live in Greece or Britain or Holland, we all understand what olives taste like. Yet, we can't express the taste in words. There's much non-linguistic thought. Personally, I find it hard to believe that Greeks, English, and Dutch have a different experience of reality. Culture is, in my opinion, not caused by language.To return to the original example: just as often as nations are constructed by speakers of the same language (Germany for example) and states have forced its citizens to speak the same language (France), one-culture societies can have more than one language (Canada, Switzerland, Belgium).So, I think that it is possible to have bilingual Macedonians living in one state and sharing one culture. How much of this culture is Greek, is another question; my personal opinion about that is that it is easy to overestimate the differences.Jona

[marcus]

Hi Jona,Thanks for this, it made me smile: "My favorite example: in English, verbs for sexual intercourse have a direct object (it is something you do TO a person, e.g., to shag someone), whereas in Dutch, similar verbs have a form that expresses that you do it WITH someone ("vrijen met iemand"). This would go a long way to explain different sexual attitudes - if the theory were right."You might be quite right about it explaining different attitudes - here's another thing to throw into the pot (OK, nothing to do with Alexander, but there you go...). It's interesting that the fairly innocuous verb "to have sex" is, however, something you do "with" someone else - it's only the euphemistic verbs that have more implication of, dare I say it, 'violence'.Anyway, that was a quick digression. Back to Al.All the bestMarcus

[Link]

Alex quizzed the Persian envoys in Pella when he was a child and this was before he was taught things in the Greekophone's tounge(or whatever they called it back then) by Aristotle. The envoys were impressed. The Macedo-Perso language that Alex would have spoke with his ladies (Roksan too) was probably similar to that Pelasgian language (ie that language that was unknown to Herodotus and the Greek speakers) similar to Sanscrit etc (it's IndoEuro). The basics would have been understandable even with some variation in pronouncing or written text.. Gamela/Kamela/Camela/Kamila etc. Dictionaries tell us part of the story too.. Stool.. from [ME;OE stol, G Stuhl]... the same in Macedonian too, Stool = Stol,, Never..[from ME;OE Naefre, from "ne" not + "aefre" ever],, No..[ME;OE "na" (Icel, nei) from "ne" not + a ever]..Macedonian - Ne = No. Cyrus, doesn't Shar-miri mean peaceful-king the same as Tsar-miro in Macedonian?btw In the coming ATG film Alex rightly does try to motivate those City State allies with his hail hellas speech and it is taken from QCR. Here is the part in context and in English for your pleasure:[4] Riding up to the line, he would address the soldiers with
words that suited their various dispositions. The Macedonians, who had
won so many wars in Europe and who had set out to conquer Asia and the
furthest lands of the East as much at their own instigation as at
his - these he reminded of their long-standing valour. [5] They were
the liberators of the world; they would one day traverse the bounds
set by Hercules and Father Liber to subdue not only the Persians but
all the races of the earth. Bactria and India would be Macedonian
provinces. What now lay before their eyes was minimal, he said,
but victory gave access to everything. [6] It would not be fruitless
labour on the sheer rocks and crags of lllyria and Thrace: they were
being offered the spoils of the entire East. And they would scarcely
need their swords: the whole enemy line, wavering In panic, could be
driven back just by their shields. [7] Alexander also referred the
Philip, conqueror of the Athenians, and recalled to their minds
recent conquest of Boeotia and the annihilation of its best-known
city. He reminded them of the river Granicus, of all the cities
they had stormed or which had capitulated, of the territory that
now lay behind them, all of it subdued and trampled beneath their
feet.
[81 Approaching the Greeks, he would remind

[Link]

[81 Approaching the Greeks, he would remind them that these were the
peoples who had inflicted wars upon Greece, wars occasioned first by
Darius and then Xerxes, when they insolently demanded water and earth
from them - to deprive them of their drinking fountains and their daily
bread when they submitted. [9] He reminded them that these were the men
who had demolished and burned their temples, stormed their cities,
violated all the laws of gods and men. Since the Illyrians and Thracians usually made their living by looting,
Alexander told them to look at the enemy line agleam with gold and
purple-equipped with booty not arms! [10] They were men, he said, so
they should advance and seize the gold from this cowardly bunch of
women. They should exchange their rugged mountain-tops and barren
hill-trails permanently stiff with frost for the rich plains and
fields of the Persians. Quintus Curtius Rufus, translated by John Yardley, Penguin Classics OLD MACEDONIANGLISH Koen iyas sam gnayan aza to shwo iyasWhen i's am knowan as to what i's vizden aza tia gorosali gramatik rekoi odviewed as the colossal gramatik reckons ofMakedonsi histori, verieve moy velot sestra,Makedon's history, believe my word sister,brator, keyull gnayall totalno onadto shwo iyas brother, you'll knowall totally on to what i's vidu aza chisto voda. viewed as chaste water.Regards to all!

[yiannis]

I'm not sure that one-culture societies can have two languages. Examples like Belgium or Switzerland don't sound right (Canada is definatelly out!) because I've met both Italian speaking & German speaking Swiss and seemed like totally different mentalities to me. Same with Belgians.
Of course now I don't want to compare the few people that I've met with the whole nation but that was my impression.My opinion is that if two people speak different languages then they have different cultures as well. Perhaps similar but still different.

[yiannis]

Thanks for your valuable copy/paste from a propaganda site from FYROM . Next time please post the link as well, so we can read the full Monty at once...I could direct you to a Greek propaganda site that rebuffs these points with equally weak arguments, but I think I'll skip.