Alexander and Roxanne

[Linda]

Ah, wouldn't the world be a duller place without diversity of opinion...Janet - I have heard of "friend of Dorothy", but "friend of Mary"? It does have a ring to it...

[neneh]

Uhm... I must admit I didn't quite understand the question, but I've got this to say on Renault and sexuality. Slightly OT, but there you go.As for Renault being a lesbian, that is generally accepted as being very much the case. Apart from writing her books on ancient Greek she wrote a few books that have been (or possibly still are) central in what is commonly known as 'queer litterature'. There has also been voices raised that argue that she used ancient Greek as the setting for her books as means of writing about (or rather publishing writings about) bisexuality and still reach a wider range of readers. Whether this is true or not doesn't really change the quality of her work.
What her motives was, I don't know, but her books are worth reading all the same.She was however once asked why she wrote about gay love as opposed to lesbian, to which she replied that men have more fun. :-)As to anyone stating their sexual preferences through anything related to this, I think we're past the days of the secret codes.All the best,Neneh

[Linda]

More OT. I guess Renault was writing in a more censored time. As someone said, you can get away with anything if you put it in a toga..I have read The Charioteer, which is not, in spite of its name, set in Ancient Greece, but last century, and it has a gay theme, and is very good.I saw a comment on the web about Renault, saying she wrote "pure slash". I guess her work has that charm... There is a pattern of gay/bisexual women writing male gay erotica. I am sure there are psychological explanations. Of course, most of Renault's gay men seem quite feminine (at least, the narrators voice - eg Last of the Wine). Apparantly there is a strand of anime, written by women, that has male partnerships, one of whom is often younger, smaller with big eyes and soft flowing hair. Bagoas, anyone? Linda

[marcus]

Which bit is nonsense, though? Is this a refusal to believe that Renault was a lesbian, or a denial, a la Queen Victoria, that such things can happen...?M

[yiannis]

If I may lighten up a bit the discussion with a short story:4-5 years ago, I was in Samos, in the summer, sitting at a beachfrond cafe, reading newspaper and overhearing a discussion that 2 British (I think) tourist guides were having right behind me.
So here goes (in short):
- Where have you been the past week?
- I was working in Lesbos.
- Funny name for an island. Ever heard how was it named as souch?!
- Not sure, but I think that a long time ago, all the men were killed in a war, so the women became lesbians and thus the island was named as such!!! ))Amazing but true! I just hope they didn't give this explanation in case any tourist would ask them .

[John.]

Good story!I think the same thing happened at Thera (Atlantis). Have you ever seen the frescos from there? It seems that only women were in control there, and the men are only pictured as naked slaves.My theory is the gods didn't like such a thing, and that's why the island was blown up. -- Also, if you take the "T" away from Thera, you get Hera. The top goddess?So, man should rule over woman, not the other way around.John

[S]

Greetings,First, the original posting by Jan seemed to be asking about the readers of Renault being gay- reading a gay author's novel does not necessarily indicate anything about the reader (X was right- that is nonsense), though naturally she has a following among the gay men and women who enjoy her books. I imagine an equal number of gay and straight people have read the books, as I imagine everyone on this forum, whether they know it or not, has read a book written by a gay or lesbian at some time, considering how many authors have been gay.. As to Renault, most people know she was lesbian. Her orientation did not affect the quality of what she produced, though of course, like anyone else, it affects her perceptions somewhat... which still does not change that she was able to create the ancient world for modern readers better than anyone else seems to have been able to do (so far).Apparently, not just gay or bi women, but many women in general like to write male/male erotica; just like some men like to write romance under female psuedonyms. When Renault commented on "men having more fun", she was not just referring to sexual behaviour but was referring to her view that men, in general, were allowed more freedom and privilege to choose how they would live, what they would do, where they would go and what they would become. When discussing Renault, one should include an examination of her times, not just her orientation.

Finally, it is one thing to one thing to define Renault as lesbian (which she was), another to try to define her readers.. is this pertinent?There is just cause for sensitivity here- all over the world, gay men and women are still deprived of basic civil rights, in some nations are imprisoned and even executed for their orientation, and in most countries are denied the protections guaranteed "self-identifying heterosexuals" ("...of course, they *could* be lying"... the danger of allowing subordination/oppression of one group is that a group *you* belong to could be singled out next)

Gay men and women also come to this Forum- and have been insulted and driven away. In the spirit of homonoia, I'd like to see Pothos become and remain an inclusive environment.Regards,
Sikander

[X]

It is a dangerous thing to think that all men are capable of "ruling" or handling power.. surely you can think of *some* you would not follow, nor want to be under their authority??? One reason meritocracy is so rare- it might upset the status quo.

[neneh]

Actually, (getting terribly OT) I've got a friend who's hobby it is to write gay erotica, and who has sent me a few stories about ATG by different writers (his sence of humour leaves a lot to wish for). Although homoerotica doesn't exactly float my boat the stories I've read have all been incredibly well-written, and most of them has been historically credible down to even the more carnal scenes.
I guess what I want to say is that just because something has got a certain theme doesn't mean it hasn't got any literary or historical value, and although I'm not a Mary Renault fan I think her work deserves to be taken seriously, no matter her intentions. The only objection I've got concerning Renault and the way she treats bisexuality in her writings, is in "The Persian Boy", where 'Bagoas' reflects over Darius wanting female company when wanting to feel "more of a man". It doesn't sound quite right somehow.All the best,Neneh

[Linda]

Ah right. With reasoning like that, womankind is safe in your masterful hands. :)Just a question - do you believe in "the gods", as real interventionist powers?

Linda

[neneh]

Sikandar,I _so_ enjoyed your post, I must say. I suppose I haven't really got anything to add (although if you want to discuss how we categorize books and their readers, send me an email ;-)I think it's funny the way you can search a catalogue for "homosexuality" and get a few entries of novels with a gay theme, whereas if you search for "heterosexuality" there's nothing.
There's something very fishy about the amazing world of categorizing and cataloguing today.Anyways, just wanted to add an "amen" to Sikandar's post.All the best,Neneh

[John.]

How can you say womankind? I thought it was MANkind, and womanCRUEL. Just joking... I think.No, I'm not going to answer your question, since I'm not your slave.Cheers!John

[karla]

Actually, the island of Lesbos was once the home of the talented poet Sapphos, who happened to be lesbian and quite open about it. I suppose greek society in her day was very open towards homosexuality. Unfortunately, most of her poems have been lost and we only have some fragments of it. Anyways, she owned and taught in her school in this island. Thus, lesbos-"lesbian" and also sappho-"sapphic"

[neneh]

Actually, it's not so much that Sappho was 'lesbian' and openly so, it's more that she wrote poems about love, and the subject of these poems were more often than not female (not that _that_ actually makes her lesbian, but that's a completely different debate). According to legend, Sappho ended her life when a ferryMAN she was in love with didn't love her back. So if anything, I suppose she'd be bisexual.All the best,Neneh

[John.]

Maybe he was a FAIRYman, and THAT's why he didn't love her back......I'm terribly sorry...John