Hephaestion's Relief

[Taphoi]

Plutarch, Moralia 332A, has Alexander notionally addressing Diogenes the Cynic. He apologises that he will not behave like that Diogenes, but will instead "emulate diogenes-Heracles" and Perseus and Dionysus. That is to say he will be a Zeus-born Diogenes. (Unfortunately the Loeb translator has misunderstood the use of the epithet diogenes against Heracles, but it is obvious that it is used in the Homeric fashion to mean Zeus-born, because Heracles, Perseus and Dionysus are all prominent sons of Zeus and it is used in this way of Heracles and Dionysus in Curtius 8.10.1.)

Then at Moralia 717C, Plutarch asserts that Alexander the King and Diogenes the Cynic died on the same day. There are about 10,000 days on which Diogenes might have died following his meeting with Alexander at Corinth, so the chance that this actually happened should be about 1 in 10,000. Alternatively, Plutarch has read somewhere that Diogenes (meaning Alexander) died on 10th June 323BC and has wrongly assumed that Diogenes the Cynic was meant.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Paralus]

Then at Moralia 717C, Plutarch asserts that Alexander the King and Diogenes the Cynic died on the same day. There are about 10,000 days on which Diogenes might have died following his meeting with Alexander at Corinth, so the chance that this actually happened should be about 1 in 10,000. Alternatively, Plutarch has read somewhere that Diogenes (meaning Alexander) died on 10th June 323BC and has wrongly assumed that Diogenes the Cynic was meant.

The search for evidence has now clearly become desperate.

[amyntoros]

Plutarch, Moralia 332A, has Alexander notionally addressing Diogenes the Cynic. He apologises that he will not behave like that Diogenes, but will instead "emulate diogenes-Heracles" and Perseus and Dionysus. That is to say he will be a Zeus-born Diogenes. (Unfortunately the Loeb translator has misunderstood the use of the epithet diogenes against Heracles, but it is obvious that it is used in the Homeric fashion to mean Zeus-born, because Heracles, Perseus and Dionysus are all prominent sons of Zeus and it is used in this way of Heracles and Dionysus in Curtius 8.10.1.)

First, here's the entire quote, for those who do not have it to hand:

But when he came to talk with Diogenes himself in Corinth, he was so awed and astounded with the life and the worth of the man that often, when remembrance of the philosopher came to him, he would say, "If I were not Alexander, I should be Diogenes," that is to say: "If I did not actively practise philosophy, I should apply myself to its theoretical pursuit." He did not say, "If I were not a king, I should be Diogenes," nor "If I were not rich and an Argead"; for he did not rank Fortune above Wisdom, nor a crown and royal purple above the philosopher's wallet and threadbare gown. But he said, "If I were not Alexander, I should be Diogenes"; that is to say: "If it were not my purpose to combine foreign things with things Greek, to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of Greek justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me, Diogenes, that I imitate Heracles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysus, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Greeks should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Caucasus. Even there it is said that there are certain holy men, a law unto themselves, who follow a rigid gymnosophy and give all their time to God; they are more frugal than Diogenes since they have no need of a wallet. For they do not store up food, since they have it ever fresh and green from the earth; the flowing rivers give them drink and they have fallen leaves and grassy earth to lie upon. Because of me even those faraway sages shall come to know of Diogenes, and he of them. And I also, like Diogenes, must alter the standard of coinage and stamp foreign states with the impress of Greek government."

I've already noted that Dionysos and Herakles were Zeus-born, along with literally dozens of others, so that doesn't change or affect the debate. As for the rest of the above quote, it is, as you will note, all Plutarch's interpretation of that one line. All Alexander is recorded as saying is "If I were not Alexander, I should be Diogenes". The rest begins with Plutarch's "that is to say..." which means you are interpreting Plutarch's interpretation when you say that Alexander was telling Diogenes he would be a Zeus-born Zeus-born, or a Diogenes Diogenes. (?)

Then at Moralia 717C, Plutarch asserts that Alexander the King and Diogenes the Cynic died on the same day. There are about 10,000 days on which Diogenes might have died following his meeting with Alexander at Corinth, so the chance that this actually happened should be about 1 in 10,000. Alternatively, Plutarch has read somewhere that Diogenes (meaning Alexander) died on 10th June 323BC and has wrongly assumed that Diogenes the Cynic was meant.

Again the quote:

Plutarch’s Moralia. Volume IX. 717 C. (Table-Talk VIII. 1.)
Someone mentioned also the death of King Alexander and of Diogenes the Cynic, which took place on the same day.

So, Plutarch read someone's writings which said that the death of King Alexander AND of Diogenes the Cynic took place on the same day. How can Plutarch have wrongly assumed that Diogenes the Cynic was meant instead of Alexander when both names had been mentioned? Perhaps you will suggest that the original writer made the wrong assumption regarding his information? FYI, here's info on the original writer:

Diogenes Laertius. Excerpt from Book VI. Chapter 2. 79
Demetrius in his work On Men of the Same Name asserts that on the same day on which Alexander died in Babylon Diogenes died in Corinth. He was an old man in the 113th Olympiad.

Hmm, on the same day Alexander died in Babylon Diogenes died in Corinth? Hard to confuse the two men given that the places of their deaths are also mentioned! The author of On Men of the Same Name (Sometimes called Poets and Writers of the Same Name, or People and Things of the Same Name) was Demetrius of Magnesia. And just incase you feel compelled to suggest that two of the "men of the same name" were Alexander and Diogenes and ask why else would be they be mentioned together, Alexander is also referenced by Demetrius when he writes about Hermias, Aristotle, Demetrius of Phalerum, and probably others who crossed Alexander's path (I'm too tired to investigate further today).

Best regards,

[Taphoi]

Plutarch’s Moralia. Volume IX. 717 C. (Table-Talk VIII. 1.)
Someone mentioned also the death of King Alexander and of Diogenes the Cynic, which took place on the same day.

So, Plutarch read someone's writings which said that the death of King Alexander AND of Diogenes the Cynic took place on the same day. How can Plutarch have wrongly assumed that Diogenes the Cynic was meant instead of Alexander when both names had been mentioned? Perhaps you will suggest that the original writer made the wrong assumption regarding his information? FYI, here's info on the original writer:

Diogenes Laertius. Excerpt from Book VI. Chapter 2. 79
Demetrius in his work On Men of the Same Name asserts that on the same day on which Alexander died in Babylon Diogenes died in Corinth. He was an old man in the 113th Olympiad.

Hmm, on the same day Alexander died in Babylon Diogenes died in Corinth? Hard to confuse the two men given that the places of their deaths are also mentioned! The author of On Men of the Same Name (Sometimes called Poets and Writers of the Same Name, or People and Things of the Same Name) was Demetrius of Magnesia. And just incase you feel compelled to suggest that two of the "men of the same name" were Alexander and Diogenes and ask why else would be they be mentioned together, Alexander is also referenced by Demetrius when he writes about Hermias, Aristotle, Demetrius of Phalerum, and probably others who crossed Alexander's path (I'm too tired to investigate further today).

Well-traced, but as you must realise you have not avoided my point, because if the original writer assumed that Diogenes was Diogenes the Cynic, then he would have known from other sources that he was based in Corinth. Diogenes Laertius also wrote that Diogenes the Cynic died aged "nearly 90", but the Suda says that he was born under the 30 tyrants (404BC), so he would only have been 81 in 323BC. Somebody is making a mistake about the death of Diogenes the Cynic. I have told you how that could have happened and how that avoids having to believe in another gigantic coincidence.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[marcus]

Well-traced, but as you must realise you have not avoided my point, because if the original writer assumed that Diogenes was Diogenes the Cynic, then he would have known from other sources that he was based in Corinth. Diogenes Laertius also wrote that Diogenes the Cynic died aged "nearly 90", but the Suda says that he was born under the 30 tyrants (404BC), so he would only have been 81 in 323BC. Somebody is making a mistake about the death of Diogenes the Cynic. I have told you how that could have happened and how that avoids having to believe in another gigantic coincidence.

For a start, I know quite a few people who would say that "81" is "nearly 90".

As you quite rightly say, the chance of Diogenes (the Cynic) dying on the same day as Alexander is around 1 in 10,000.

(a) It doesn't mean that he didn't.
(b) it isn't such a gigantic coincidence - whether Diogenes was 81 or 90, he was old and clearly set to die at some point. The likelihood of his dying on any of the other 10,000 preceding days was around 1 in 10,000 as well, funnily enough (but, if you really want to play statistics and probability, I'm sure there are hundreds of other factors we could introduce).
(c) Why would someone make a mistake and confuse Diogenes with Alexander? After all, so far we have had no evidence that Alexander was habitually referred to as "Diogenes".

Andrew, it is a particularly wild and bold statement to say that someone has made a mistake about the death of Diogenes the Cynic. You cannot just dismiss a whole load of evidence that runs contrary to your argument - it won't go away! It is an argument which, I'm afraid to say, doesn't appear to be convincing many people!

On this one occasion, why not graciously accept that, nice though your theory about the Hephaestion relief is (and I do like it), it can be no more than a theory because we don't have the evidence for it?

ATB

[spitamenes]

Is this the only reference to Diogenes the cynics death that we have from history?

[Paralus]

Is this the only reference to Diogenes the cynics death that we have from history?

According to the increasingly desperate Andrew Chugg, this is not a notice of the death of Diogenes the Cynic.

[Paralus]

Somebody is making a mistake about the death of Diogenes the Cynic. I have told you how that could have happened and how that avoids having to believe in another gigantic coincidence.

And that somebody could not ever, of course, be yourself now could it?

"Waving not drowning!" comes to mind.

[Alexias]

Nothing to do with Alexander's Hephaestion, but I found these photos of a Hephaestion relief from the early Roman period http://search.lycos.co.uk/image.php?tab ... chArea=web from Bursa,Turkey.

[marcus]

Nothing to do with Alexander's Hephaestion, but I found these photos of a Hephaestion relief from the early Roman period http://search.lycos.co.uk/image.php?tab ... chArea=web from Bursa,Turkey.

I was just about to say "it's not our Hephaestion", then I noticed that you have already made that observation! Doh!

Quite nice, though.

ATB

[marcus]

Is this the only reference to Diogenes the cynics death that we have from history?

More seriously, after Paralus' pithy response ... I believe so, although it is also mentioned in the Suda (but the Suda entry was almost certainly compressed from Diogenes Laertius). I'm certainly not aware of any other mention of his death, but that doesn't mean that there isn't.

Let me clarify - I'm not aware of any other mention of the fact that he died on the same day as Alexander - there are other references to his death (e.g. Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, I.33).

ATB

[agesilaos]

Diogenes Laertius also reports Diogenes' response to Alexander's demand for divinity, 'Then make me Sarapis!' 6.63; odd that he wishes to be a god that was not invented until twenty odd years after his supposed death. Late sources, the love of a good turn of phrase...

Contempory-wise we have Hypereides

τότ᾽ ἐν τῷ δήμῳ συγχωρῶν Ἀλεξάνδρῳ καὶ τοῦ Διὸς καὶ τοῦ Ποσειδῶνος εἶ[ναι εἰ βούλ]οιτο

'Should Alexander wish to be the product of a union of Zeus let him, of Poseidon too should he wish it!' Against Demosthenes 5.7 which surely reflects the terms of Alexander's decree? Had he wished to be Diogenes the the joke would have been to let him be Pericles or Socrates if he wished it.

As for the Kallisthenes 'quote' that is Strabo, or his intermediary's paraphrase...Kallisthenes knew the difference between Gaugamela and Arbela; one simply must not expect ancient sources to behave like modern historians, they do not quote accurately and always strive for a rhetorical effect their History is an art not a science.

[marcus]

Against Demosthenes 5.7 which surely reflects the terms of Alexander's decree? Had he wished to be Diogenes the the joke would have been to let him be Pericles or Socrates if he wished it.

I'm possibly being very thick here, but is that Demosthenes reference correct? I just looked up 5.7 and couldn't see what you were talking about ...

ATB

[spitamenes]

I remember reading that but it was somewhere else besides Demosthenes. Not saying its not there of course. Just saying i believe its been referenced elsewhere maybe?

[agesilaos]

The quote is from Hypereides speech, 'Against Demosthenes' but he is saying that this was Demosthenes' comment.