Alexander into the bin

[jasonxx]

Its fair to say with all my efforts to stand up for Alexander, My attempts have failed. Therefore he has to be dumped on the scrap heap. I cant justify anything about Alexander to his detractors. If anyone thinks Stones movie has done anything for Alexander then try look outside.

The general consensus out there among the general viewers of this movie is Alexander was a insecure sop. Reliant on his mother and forever fawning over dancing boys etc.Before I could hold with my own beliefs aboutr Alexander and put up rational explanation to detractors. Its now impossible as the opinions have been gotten by the movie.So if anyone in here thinks Stone movie was beneficial to Alexander and opened a balanced view of Alexander then indeed you are wrong.

The Labels I get are Alexander The Wuss.Alexander the Cry Baby. The list is endless.I have burned all the pictures books etc. I cant have my kids brought to ridicule as there dad is interested in Alexander. Or was .

I only hope any other Heroic people from History get the hatchet job from Stone.If As Stone said Alexander was his hero. Then Hes put him in the mud.

Kenny.

Adios and in the bin Alexander the wuss.

[Efstathios]

Ahahahahhah! I must say i really enjoyed the post Kenny.

I agree with you of course. But dont be far fetched. This crap that is called an Alexander movie has no way established an image of Alexander to the world.

It may not be right, but i think 300 was an absolute success of a movie instead. Frank Miller really went to the right direction.While Stone gave basis to the hypothetical biosexual characteristics of Alexander and created this crap, Frank Miller gave basis to all these things that a movie of this kind should have.Too much blood, but the point was made. It's a heck of a movie.

Go pick up the books Kenny, or buy new ones.

P.S I am seriously thinking of writing a nice letter to Mel Gibson to make a movie about Alexander. Surely it would be light years ahed of what Stone did. And then we could have a good movie of Alexander.

[keroro]

300 is a movie based on a comic, not history - hence the blood etc. Stone at least tried to stick to elements of the Alexander story that are historically justifiable. This may not have succeeded in creating a movie that is entirely comfortable viewing, but at least he tried. Like many I have a problem with the rather silly longing looks that Alex and Heph give each other over the course of the film and I also think that these two crucial roles were miscast, but I would be more uncomfortable with a film that tried to gloss over these elements and ignore an essential part of Alexander's life.

What you seem to want is a movie based on one of the Alexander Romances, whereas others are more interested in seeing a film based on historical evidence.

One further thing - Alexander would not be a true Hellenistic Hero if he was not full of contradictions and did not cause controversy. An element of tragedy is intrinsic to his appeal, and we should be able to accept him as not only 'The Great', but also 'The Flawed'.

[jasonxx]

Efts Hail

Your wasting your time. Its done. Ill find a better warrior with Ghengis Khan. Ok a little brutal butr just as succesful. Rags to riches. My son went to a dress up day at school last week as part of national book week. When we were in Corfu the owner of the apartments we stayed in took a liking to my son and bought him a special Alexander The Great book. Now he went dressed up as Alexander it took us weeks to make his armour etc. Do u know the remarks he got from his school mates and we know kids are honest and brutal. They asked my son why he came as a raving puff. Ok were supposed to be in the days of tolerance. but we cant stop young kids using the words. He came home and binned both the outfit and the book he was bought.

I couldnt sit him down and talk about ignorance etc. The school playground is brutal as we know,. He was right to get upset and bin the stuff.People maybe wondering why ive turned so bitter lately now you all know. I cant defend or argue a lost cause. It came to a head on Friday night a commis chef was trying to take the piss about as he said Kennys into Alexander gay bumb boy. Anyway I was disciplined and nearly fired for leaving him in a heap at the back of the fridge. Thatswas the last straw and the books and stuff went.

Respect about 300 its at the top in America and i cant wait to see it. A movie about glory and bravery. With a little inventive licence. So much better than a pussy crying to his mother and eyeing up male dancers.

respect.

kenny

[Efstathios]

Well Kenny, that incident wouldnt happen in a Greek school anyway, but i know what you are talking about. I can imagine the bitterness. Actually i feel it every time i see things llike that. We grown ups of course know that it doesnt matter what sexual orientation Alexander had, but for kids it's another story.

Genkis Khan? Are you serious? From culture to savagery? Dont you dare. He wouldnt even be worthy to clean Alexander's tent.

Stone at least tried to stick to elements of the Alexander story that are historically justifiable.

Historically justifiable? Oh dont get me started please. Was anyone there to see what Alexander did with Hephaestion when they hang out? Stone's pitifull scenes with Hephaestion and Alexander are his own and are not based in any hisorical fact. And Mr Green should have known better when he suggested some things as facts.

but I would be more uncomfortable with a film that tried to gloss over these elements and ignore an essential part of Alexander's life.

An essential part of Alexander's life? Where did this come from? Since when the friendship between Alexander and Hephaestion became an essential part for a movie about Alexander.Stone made it an essential part.

What you seem to want is a movie based on one of the Alexander Romances, whereas others are more interested in seeing a film based on historical evidence.

Again, see the above as for the historical evidence thing.

One further thing - Alexander would not be a true Hellenistic Hero if he was not full of contradictions and did not cause controversy. An element of tragedy is intrinsic to his appeal, and we should be able to accept him as not only 'The Great', but also 'The Flawed'.

I agree but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here and why Kenny and many other people feel bitter about Stone's movie. It's not about the murder of Cleitus, or any other flaws that the movie has shown, but the specific always hypohetical aspect of Alexander that the movie has shown in excess.

But ok, Stone has failed in every movie he made.He twisted every biography he chose to make.Remember "The doors" ?

And dont start the homophobia and all thing, because it has nothing to do with this. I know some of you may like the movie and this approach that Stone used, but for your own reasons and has nothing to do with historical facts and about how a movie of this kind should bemade.

Stone's movie just ridiculed Alexander as Kenny have so good pointed out.

[Paralus]

An essential part of Alexander's life? Where did this come from? Since when the friendship between Alexander and Hephaestion became an essential part for a movie about Alexander.Stone made it an essential part.

When it becomes the only life-long rlationship outside of that with his mother. As I've said before, this was Alexander's "life partner".

Bit like making a biographical film about Katherine Hepburn and leaving out Spencer Tracey.

[Efstathios]

Ever lasting friendship. Yes, it is essential. And it is true that a man may consider his best friend a more essential part in his life than his wife. Because friendship between men is on another level. But this doesnt imply anything other than that. And a man may mourn that much as Alexander did about a true best friend. It still doesnt say anything.

From the sources we dont hear anything special about Alexander and Hephaestion during the campaign as for a movie about Alexander to focus in this in excess. Stone just wanted to create a fuzz over this because he thought that would make the movie sell better, but it didnt.

What it did was what Kenny described. It made Alexander look like a ridicule.

[keroro]

An essential part of Alexander's life? Where did this come from? Since when the friendship between Alexander and Hephaestion became an essential part for a movie about Alexander.Stone made it an essential part.

When it becomes the only life-long rlationship outside of that with his mother. As I've said before, this was Alexander's "life partner".

Bit like making a biographical film about Katherine Hepburn and leaving out Spencer Tracey.

Thank you for putting that so well Paralus.

The exceptionally close relationship between Alexander and Hephaestion is attested to in every source we have on Alexander. You only need to look at the lavish funeral arrangements made for Hephaestion to see how dear he was held. Do you think Alexander would have put so much into it if Ptolomy or Seleucus or Kraterus were the one who died?

One further thing - Alexander would not be a true Hellenistic Hero if he was not full of contradictions and did not cause controversy. An element of tragedy is intrinsic to his appeal, and we should be able to accept him as not only 'The Great', but also 'The Flawed'.

I agree but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here and why Kenny and many other people feel bitter about Stone's movie. It's not about the murder of Cleitus, or any other flaws that the movie has shown, but the specific always hypohetical aspect of Alexander that the movie has shown in excess.

I'm glad that we can agree on something anyway.

There is always a problem with trying to create a character from limited historical evidence. I believe, personally, that Stone has tried to do this as honestly as he could. Such a work is always going to have some hypothetical guesswork involved or else what you are left with is a ghost of Alexander, not a believeable, rounded character.

I accept that you believe that Stone has not gone the right way with his vision of Alexander, and to say that Stone has 'ridiculed' Alexander and 'failed' is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, I am disappointed that you choose to insult Stone just because he did not create the Alexander on screen that lives in your head. He didn't create the Alexander that lives in my head either, like I said before the soppy looks between Alex and Heph are cringeworthy, easily as bad as those between Mr. Frodo and Samwise in LotR, but still I see some other scenes that are thought provoking and some that I believe are fantastic cinema. I am glad that you can recognise that some people find things to applaud in Stone's movie.

Kenny - Cildren are honest but also, by definition, immature. People who knock Alexander for what they perceive as 'gay' practices are at best immature or uninformed and at worst just bigots. Best to educate the first lot and ignore the second lot, and let the children grow up before you start abondoning your heroes. - just my 2 cents.

[Alita]

Kenny, I'm really sorry about what your little boy went through. Kids can be cruel; or rather, kids' parents can be cruel and kids are just brutally honest - the worst diplomats in the world. That's why I love them and I often can't stand their parents. (They say nothing drains courage like parenthood).

But I think Efstathios is right: Why should you have to give up your loves and interests because the world has been brainwashed by silly messages by people who think they know what they're talking about but know nothing? If Alexander or any of his legacy is in your soul, the world can't touch it. At least, that's how I feel about the things and people I treasure. I keep them in my heart and don't share them with anyone undeserving. It's like your best crystal, that you only bring out for special occasions with people who you know will appreciate the gesture. I guess the trick is to figure out who is worthy of your dreams and who isn't. Ah, that's the pain and triumph of life!

When people ridicule, ask yourself these questions:
1. Does this person even matter to me?
2. Will this person leave a great legacy in their wake?
3. Would this person risk their life for me or my loved ones?
4. Is the world a wiser place today than it was in earlier (perhaps ancient) times?
And finally,
5. Do I value the things I value (e.g. Alexander) more than I value myself?

Keep that shark of a world at bay; people who love to criticise can never create anything great or lasting.

I hope I haven't come on too strong. I'm just saddened when things like this happen.

To Efstathios, I like your idea about doing an Alex movie with Mel in the lead (I'd love him as director or lead actor, he's divine ). At least he would show some slivers of the gallantry and gentlemanliness that Alexander was famed for.

Cheers,
Alita.

[Efstathios]

The exceptionally close relationship between Alexander and Hephaestion is attested to in every source we have on Alexander. You only need to look at the lavish funeral arrangements made for Hephaestion to see how dear he was held. Do you think Alexander would have put so much into it if Ptolomy or Seleucus or Kraterus were the one who died?

You may have read what i wrote , but didnt actually read it.

Where is it attested in the sources about the exceptionally close relationship of Alexander and Hephaestion, beyond a true friendship that a man can have with a man? What are the differences exactly? Because as i recall best friends eat toghether, may sleep in the same room when they are kids, they may do things toghether, and all that. What's the difference with Alexander and Hephaestion?

We know that they were best friends during childhood, and that they still were during the campaign. What else do we know? Maybe you are right. Everyone sees Alexander and furthermore Alexander's frienship with Hephaestion as he or she would want it to be.

But hey, apart from a bitter and hostile remark from Diogenis about Hephaestion's thighs, which we cannot take into serious consideration as you also can remember the remarks Demosthenes made about Philip, i dont' see anything else in the friendship between Alexander and Hephaestion.

Why shouldnt he build a great building for him and then tear it down to honor him? He had the power to do it. He was his best friend, and furthemore, maybe the only person in the campaign that he could trust and rely on. And yet we get only sparse and rare remarks about that in the sources. What? The scene with Hephaestion reaching to see what Alexander was writing to his mother? Or him kissing the ring? But some people think that there has to be more than that. No, after he kissed the ring he may have done other things too.

Well the guile is in the eyes of the beholder.


I dont disagree that there may have been something more, but heck, in the sources there is nothing either to suggest that there ever was. And the most profound thing that i have heard about this, is that they probably didnt have something still going on during the campaign (of course, because there is no evidence) , but they had something during their child-teenagehood (yes, because for back then there is absolutely nothing, so it is easier to just make specculations). Oh common...

However, I am disappointed that you choose to insult Stone just because he did not create the Alexander on screen that lives in your head

He created a bisexual relantionship between Alexander and Hephaestion based on what? Poetic licence? Ok, so in the same manner Mel Gibson could have easily made William Wallace having a bisexual relationship with this bearded scot friend of his just because they bled toghether in the battlefield, and all that. Where is the proof?

Heck, if you may think i am missing something important from the sources, please feel fee to quote the appropriate texts and lets discuss them.

[jasonxx]

Efts Hail

Just to let you know 300 is breaking all box office records and most movie critics are hailing the movie better than Braveheart and Gladiator.

It just proves that viewers are getting fed up with lazy boring teen Romantic Comedies. Cartoons and the other rubbish thataparently wins Oscars. The Departed aside. Ive spoken to no one thats watched the Queen nor is interested in the borring tosh.

As with lord of the Rings. Braveheart, Gladiator. Spiderman. People want a bit of escapism and entertainment. People enjoy bravery battles specatacle etc heroism even sacrifice. we know that 300 is loosely based on Thermopalie but who cares the roots as the same. Regards the movie vilifying Persians. Ok we know they were not yet a good movie needs good guys and bad guys. If historians and more likely some porthonians would diss the movie for inacuracies fair enough. But the movie gives the masses what it wants action and adventure. This movie is going down great guns, With a story about 1 battle the movie cost no where near the Stone movie but is a master peace.

And to you Efts you may not like the idea but this movie has given the world a fantastic warrior king hero in Leonidas. Not some cry baby homosexual.

The irony Efts is that Alexander The Greats story didnt even need embelishment. therewas plenty action battle and heroism to make Alexander a great movie. A writer doesnt have to invent. yet Stone has left Alexander in ashes that any future director would be suicidal to touch. The masses have irepairably been put off Alexander The Gay.

[Efstathios]

Hey, i was the one that said that 300 rocks. Have you seen it yet?

There are not that many historical innacuracies. Just fantasy things to make points. It was a comic after all. Like when it shows Xerxes, being a giant. Truly Xexes was a tall person. But of course the purpose of him being potarayed as a giant is to show the intimidation of the massiveness of the Persian army.

Go see it if you havent yet.

As i said to you, Alexander has been great for 2000 years now and doesnt need to be defended by anyone. A movie wont change that. And the biggest proof for that is that most people didnt like the movie. Another movie may come which will be good.

[jasonxx]

efts

The Movie is on general release here on Thursday. 22nd. Its getting hailed as a great and exciting movie. We gotta reflect on the ideas of the back bone. Ok there were no where near a million Persions. but there were hoards and the idea must have been dark and scary. the reflection I feel is great. I doubt the British saw the idea of possible Nazi invasion through Rose coloured glassed. The idea must have been dark and scary terrifying even.

But the fundamentlal story is the Same as Zulu.The Alamo. And Thermopalai. Even the final battle in Conan the Barabarian. Few stood against many. The world today needs heroes and fiets of bravery in a world full of threat poverty and desperation. Is why people love these movies. Gladiator. Troy. Braveheart.Lord Of The Rings. Most People Children women look to wards a hero or guardian some one with morals to stand and fight. Not turnCheek fence sit and run and leave those vulnerable.

We all need a Aragorn. Achilles Maximus.

I doubt anyone needs a cry baby insecure [edited].

Hail Efts the movie looks fab.

kenny

[keroro]

The exceptionally close relationship between Alexander and Hephaestion is attested to in every source we have on Alexander. You only need to look at the lavish funeral arrangements made for Hephaestion to see how dear he was held. Do you think Alexander would have put so much into it if Ptolomy or Seleucus or Kraterus were the one who died?

You may have read what i wrote , but didnt actually read it.

In fact, I didn't see it before I wrote my reply - you'll see the time difference is only three minutes. I apologise and shall try to reply now.

Ever lasting friendship. Yes, it is essential. And it is true that a man may consider his best friend a more essential part in his life than his wife. Because friendship between men is on another level. But this doesnt imply anything other than that. And a man may mourn that much as Alexander did about a true best friend. It still doesnt say anything.

Agreed. It doesn't necessarily say anything.

From the sources we dont hear anything special about Alexander and Hephaestion during the campaign as for a movie about Alexander to focus in this in excess. Stone just wanted to create a fuzz over this because he thought that would make the movie sell better, but it didnt.

What it did was what Kenny described. It made Alexander look like a ridicule.

I doubt if Stone was simply looking to make the movie sell well. I am very cynical by nature, but even I believe that Stone was trying to do his best with this film. There are a million films that Stone could make that would sell better, but he chose to make something that mattered to him.

Where is it attested in the sources about the exceptionally close relationship of Alexander and Hephaestion, beyond a true friendship that a man can have with a man? What are the differences exactly? Because as i recall best friends eat toghether, may sleep in the same room when they are kids, they may do things toghether, and all that. What's the difference with Alexander and Hephaestion?

We know that they were best friends during childhood, and that they still were during the campaign. What else do we know? Maybe you are right. Everyone sees Alexander and furthermore Alexander's frienship with Hephaestion as he or she would want it to be.

But hey, apart from a bitter and hostile remark from Diogenis about Hephaestion's thighs, which we cannot take into serious consideration as you also can remember the remarks Demosthenes made about Philip, i dont' see anything else in the friendship between Alexander and Hephaestion.

Why shouldnt he build a great building for him and then tear it down to honor him? He had the power to do it. He was his best friend, and furthemore, maybe the only person in the campaign that he could trust and rely on. And yet we get only sparse and rare remarks about that in the sources. What? The scene with Hephaestion reaching to see what Alexander was writing to his mother? Or him kissing the ring? But some people think that there has to be more than that. No, after he kissed the ring he may have done other things too.

I dont disagree that there may have been something more, but heck, in the sources there is nothing either to suggest that there ever was. And the most profound thing that i have heard about this, is that they probably didnt have something still going on during the campaign (of course, because there is no evidence) , but they had something during their child-teenagehood (yes, because for back then there is absolutely nothing, so it is easier to just make specculations). Oh common...

To be quite honest I couldn't give a damn whether or not Alex and Heph ever got it on. I suspect that they did but I'm not going to spend ages trying to prove it one way or another or to convince you one way or another. I haven't come to my image of Alexander's personal life based on what I want it to be, there are plenty of things about Alexander that I would change if I were able, but I'm not. I have to deal with the picture that I build up from what I read - as I said before a rather incomplete and contradictory image.

Just so's I can be clear - are you rejecting the idea of a general homoerotic aspect to ancient Greek and Macedonian affairs, or are you more specifically rejecting it in reference to Alex and Heph?

There is one direct quote I can throw in, even if it is from Wiki - if anyone can show that it is incorrect then please let me know and I will withdraw it:

...there fell upon Alexander a stunning blow, the loss of Hephaestion. His intimate boyhood love, Hephaestion was gone, the congenial enthusiastic nature which had been so much more to Alexander than Ptolemy's sagacity or Nearchus' careful courage, the friend, more than a friend, and closer than a brother, who alone awoke a gentler emotion in the breast... From Plutarch

Now accepting that I don't speak Greek or Latin and therefore don;t know if this has been translated properly - a 'gentler emotion', his 'intimate boyhood love'; these are not words that one would use for a friend, however dear. These are words used in relation to a lover. It's perfectly possible that this purported relationship took place in their early years and did not continue into their adault years, I won't dispute that. What is clear from the sources is that Hephaestion was the closest friend and companion to Alexander. Would you dispute this?

However, I am disappointed that you choose to insult Stone just because he did not create the Alexander on screen that lives in your head

He created a bisexual relantionship between Alexander and Hephaestion based on what? Poetic licence? Ok, so in the same manner Mel Gibson could have easily made William Wallace having a bisexual relationship with this bearded scot friend of his just because they bled toghether in the battlefield, and all that. Where is the proof?

Heck, if you may think i am missing something important from the sources, please feel fee to quote the appropriate texts and lets discuss them.

No, he didn't create a bisexual relationship, he created a homoerotic relationship. They are different things since heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality are fairly modern category constructs. I get the feeling that Stone probably created it based on the advice of his advisors like Lane Fox, who in turn were probably extrapolating from a knowledge of the general level of homoerotic activity in ancient Greece/Macedonia and the close relationship between Alex and Heph. I accept that an erotic relationship between Alex and Heph is not directly stated in any sources in an uncontrovercial fashion. I would need to watch the film again (it's a long time since I saw it) to discuss it in any significant detail. Though that does mean sitting through Jared Leto's soppy looks again.

[Alita]

Far out Kenny, you and I should write a book together sometime.

A.