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Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 7:07 pm
by beausefaless
Horses naturally are not carnivorous, they are certainly capable of savaging other animals or humans with their teeth. Stallions in particular are notorious for biting their handlers from time to time; indeed Xenophon recommends muzzling a horse (Peri Hippikes 5. 3) and allows that castration is a permanent solution to the problem (Cyropaedia 7. 5. 60 f.).,
If this translation on horse biting is correct then Xenophon's knowledge on equus is very limited and far from the truth with this subject (biting). I own and handled horses most of my life and every horse I've seen may it be a mare, gilding or stud love to bite make no mistake or you'll be in for a real shocker. One of my twenty horses a gilding, I don't include the foals for they are sold, will bite anyone on their rear every time they bend over it's very funny to watch but not for the person, any animal dog, cat, turkey and whatever are not safe not to mention a horse can kick a fly of their ear. Most horses have the mind of a child but there are a few exceptions to this rule, two of mine can open any door if it's not locked, door knobs, latches, makes no difference, the same with gates.
I'm sure Bucephalus did his share of biting and kicking when he took Alexander into battle, what a magnificent sight to behold, but it's not that uncommon for a horse to be afraid of any shadow their eye sight is zero, ten degrees in front and back, with a 340 degree of sight remaining, which ain't bad. I always wondered if Bucephalus was a gilding or stud? I'm sure the Macedon Calvary had its share of mares with foals for they are on their feet within a day. Did I forgot to mention one of my gildings eats tuna fish sandwiches and loves to drink beer and wont touch a carrot? Once someone gave him all of a six pack and he kicked one of my stalls to pieces.

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 2:41 pm
by S
Greetings Andrew,
One of my mares loved boiled beef heart- but she was unusual all around, quite clever and, likemost horses, capable of assessing the quality or competency of a rider in about 5 seconds... and an escape artist.
As to biting, over the decades I have worked with my own horses I have seen them nip at each other to establish dominance or position in the hierarchy but never had any that bit anything else. Bloodlines, breed and early handling might have an effect, as I've also rehabilitated "sour" horses and have had to work through some serious problems..
but usually, once the problem is resolved and the rider trained, the horses seem to do well- though they sometimes then tend to work better with an individual rather than with multiple riders. That may have been the case with Bucephalus, since Alexander seems to have made certain the horse was well-cared for and I suspect he made certain that anyone handling the horse did it to exact orders, also.
Regards,
Sikander

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:04 pm
by davej
Animal behaviour is weird at the best of times. We had a sheep that ate devon, a 10 stone bull mastif who was afraid of beer bottles, a goat that ate cigarettes in the packet from peoples pockets, and a ram that ate chillis sandwiches. The weirdest thing I have ever seen and swear to the gods this happend at least once a month all our animals would sit in a big circle and look at each other like they were having some sort of meeting. Two cats, two big dogs two small dogs a cow and two horses three goats and sometimes a duck or two as well. I think Xenophon was trying to generalise and romantise the stallions a bit. I have to confess I have'nt finished reading "on horsemanship". I have some time up my sleeve now, I might just have a look. I am doing a cavalry sarissa charge later this year, I need to read something. I already know how to ride I just dont know how to ride and not fall off.Just as a side note do you believe Alexander rode Bukephalus into battle. It think not, Plutarch states that after Issos I think that he lost a horse from under him and that it was not Bukephalus. The Mosaic is'nt Bukephalus either, contrary to Stewarts assertion, (he has actually conceeded to me that he was wrong on that one).Any thoughts?

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:14 pm
by Tre
It is likely that the horse on the mosaic is indeed Bucephalus, because one would do a portrait of the King on his favorite horse and certainly one so famous as Bucephalus. That the horse pictured is not 'black' as Arrian suggests, colors not being terriblt defined in Greek, is not enough evidence to suggest he's not the horse.Alexander no doubt rode Bucephalus into battle in his younger days, but in defference to the horses' age and his affection, he kept the beloved pet out of battle and Bucephalus was the parade horse. That's why he lived so long.Regards,Tre

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:15 pm
by Tre
It is likely that the horse on the mosaic is indeed Bucephalus, because one would do a portrait of the King on his favorite horse and certainly one so famous as Bucephalus. That the horse pictured is not 'black' as Arrian suggests, colors not being terriblt defined in Greek, is not enough evidence to suggest he's not the horse.Alexander no doubt rode Bucephalus into battle in his younger days, but in defference to the horses' age and his affection, he kept the beloved pet out of battle and Bucephalus was the parade horse. That's why he lived so long.Regards,Tre

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:45 pm
by davej
That is a long bow to draw and pressumes alot. Which battle is it? Is Guagamela because it was the last great battle or Issos. You would think Guagamela but that's not a given, you would also think it Bukaphalus but again not necessarily. Can you explain the absence of the white mark on his forehead, which was afterall a trademark. Is ATG's horse brown because Darius' are black?I am not sure about the terminolog in koine for black and brown? I could look it up but I am too lazy, do you have it at hand. Why is it confussed?Dj

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:56 am
by beausefaless
I did mention I day dream of Alexander riding Bucephalus into battle but dj you make a very good point, a horse that spooks easy usually makes for a good pack horse their smarts are more like a mule than a horse they're more aware and sure footed most of the time, they can go from a gallop and then stop on a dime if your not paying attention you'll be flying over the horses head. I would not be surprised if Alexander did not ride Bukephalus into a major battle in close quarters using primitive weapons there's a very good chance your horse will be nailed at least by one of those weapons take a horse out and you could have the rider at a disadvantage. I believe Alexander loved his horse and it's hard for me to think he would place Bukephalus in jeopardy plus he, his army and all the other people traveled for thousands of miles a good pack (riding) horse is worth their weight in silver, interesting thought.

Your animal camp circle reminds of a incident that took place in the back country a short time ago we were all around the camp fire and one of my gildings walked over a man and his wife then pushed each one to both the sides made enough room to lye down and join the fun.

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:09 am
by marcus
I have to say, Dave, that I agree with Tre. Irrespective of which battle it's meant to be, the Romans understood poetic/artistic licence as well as we do, and I would be surprised if a representation of Alexander *didn't* show him riding Bucephalas.Even without the white mark, or the wrong colour, or whatever, I can well imagine anyway that the good citizens of Pompeii would look at the mosaic and say "oh look, he's on Bucephalas", even if the artist *didn't* intend it to be him.All the bestMarcusPS: cavalry sarissa training sounds fun... and a tad dangerous - you will be careful, won't you? :-)

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:20 pm
by davej
Hi Marcus,I disagree, the Romans knew more about battle then a modern society. The chances of lossing a cherished companion/pet in battle would be all too real. There is arguement that ATG would have wanted to use a horse he trusted in battle, but surely h would have had a few horses he could trust. Ir eally don't think ATG for all his noble trappings would use a horse of advanced years in battle no matter how good it was. I just can't see it. Plutarch's mention of the death of ATG's horse qualified with the statement Not Bukephalus this time is awkward and sounds like back peddling. In my minds eye I just can't see ATG using Bukephalus for anything other than ceremonial purposes. I know the evidence is sketchy but lets break it down to some cutting questions.If ATG was a responsible commander would he use an old horse for battle?If ATG loved Bukephalus why would he risk him in battle where horse casualties were high? remember no armour for Macedonian horses.If Bukephalus (an important ATG icon) had taken part in battles dont you thin the sources would have recorded his injuries as they did ATG's?The concept of war horse and a parade horse was not uncommon in Rome, they would have kown Bukephalus was black or at least dark with a white mark on his forehead better then any of us, so why would they pressume that that horse is Bukephalus?Let us not forget how important Iconography was to ancients, in art in particular. Herackles lions head, Athena's snakes and owls etc.PS. I am going to be supper careful with the horses, my wife is not very happy about the idea. This weekend I have decided to strap the kids into a tandom go cart instead.RegardsCroc Hunter.

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:28 pm
by davej
Hi Andy,Bukephalus nature as a colt is well documented but I wonder if he got better. Some animals are always jumpy but others get over it. Bukephalus I don't think was fully broken when he was brought to Philip, so I wonder if he calmed down. I don't think its fair to introduce that argument as much as I would like to.I remembered foundly last night all the animals we had on the farm and though that level of socialisation must be a by product of domestication, in the absence of a natural pack or herd the animals form bonds with animals of other species, including man. When I had to film Zebra for three *&%#@ing hours for my wife's physcology asignment on animal behaviour I did not notice anything unusual about their actions.RegardsDj

Re: Xenophon and Bucephalus

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:47 am
by marcus
Hi Dave,I fear you misunderstood me. I agree that, at least after a while, Alexander probably didn't ride Bucephalas into battle.However, one would not paint a picture of Alexander on any horse *other* than Bucephalas. In the same way that you would not paint a picture of the Duke of Wellington on a horse other than Copenhagen.All the bestMarcus