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Posted: **Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:53 am**

First, I'd just like to say, I really love being a part of this community, because the amount of knowledge and expertise that presides here is nothing short of awe-inspiring and admirable, not to mention the time you guys take to answer and offer your expertise and opinions... a big thank you to all of you!!

Enclosed with the questions, you'll find certain comments by Robin Lane Fox. I would like to hear as well what you guys have to say about these matters, because
I've found that there is a lot written about Alexander and his family, and discerning truth from myths and allegations can be quite a task...

1. When Philip II died, did Olympias really murder Eurydice and her daughter by burning them alive? Robin Lane Fox says that it's only allegations in later less reliable sources and that it only concerns the baby.

2. There is another source saying that the Caranus child was tortured to death in front of his mother who was subsequently forced to kill herself. About this Robin says that Justin epitome of Trogus may ultimately be using the scandalous and gossiping contemporary theopompus (I know I probably relayed and spelled this name wrongly) for the Caranus death story. He further says that Eurydice, Caranus and Europa all were killed BUT WE DO NOT know how, also that Cleopatra is not the royal in the front chamber of Tomb2. What do you think about all this? I guess in this instance Cleopatra and Eurydice are one and the same person.

All the best
Rob

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:12 pm**

robbie wrote:1. When Philip II died, did Olympias really murder Eurydice and her daughter by burning them alive? Robin Lane Fox says that it's only allegations in later less reliable sources and that it only concerns the baby. I presume he's talking about Caranus.

2. There is another source saying that the Caranus child was tortured to death in front of his mother who was subsequently forced to kill herself. About this Robin says that Justin epitome of Trogus may ultimately be using the scandalous and gossiping contemporary theopompus (I know I probably relayed and spelled this name wrongly) for the Caranus death story. He further says that Eurydice, Caranus and Europa all were killed BUT WE DO NOT know how, also that Cleopatra is not the royal in the front chamber of Tomb2. What do you think about all this? I guess in this instance Cleopatra and Eurydice are one and the same person.

Hi Robbie,

Glad that you enjoy being part of the Pothos community!

The deaths of Cleopatra/Eurydice and her child(ren) are difficult, for various reasons. Here are all the references to their deaths (as far as I know):

Justin 9.7.12
Next [Olympias] forced Cleopatra, for whose sake she had been divorced from Philip, to hang herself, having first killed her daughter in her lap, and enjoyed the sight of her suffering this vengeance, to which she had hastened by procuring the death of her husband.

Justin 11.2.3
[Alexander] also arranged the murder of his half-brother, Caranus, son of his stepmother, who was his rival for the throne.

Justin 12.6.14
His thoughts then turned to Parmenion and Philotas, to his cousin Amyntas, to his murdered stepmother and brothers, to Attalus, Eurylochus, Pausanias and the other Macedonian chieftains he had eliminated.

(This quote from Justin appears when Alexander is mourning the death of Cleitus the Black.)

Plutarch, Alexander 10.4
[Alexander] was angry with Olympias for her savage treatment of Cleopatra during his absence.

No mention of Cleopatra being killed, nor any mention of the children.

Paulus Orosius 3.18.8
The story is that he slew his cousin Amyntas, put to death his stepmother and her brothers, and murdered Parmenio and Philotas.

A late source (5th century AD), not to be taken as gospel for anything, but a conglomeration of earlier histories, anyway.

Pausanias 8.7.7
and when he died Olympias took his baby son, the child of Attalos’ niece Kleopatra, and murdered the child and the mother together by dragging them on to a bronze oven filled with fire, and later she killed Aridaios.

What I think this comes down to is the following:

(1) Olympias killed Cleopatra/Eurydice, or possibly caused her to commit suicide.
(2) We do not know the manner of Cleopatra's death, nor that of the child(ren), and the manners described in the sources are possibly lurid sensationalism, not least because the sources do not agree with each other. If Olympias were going to murder them, she would hardly do so in such an elaborate manner as that described by Pausanias. Justin is more likely in this case.
(3) It can be said with a great deal of certainly that Cleopatra had a daughter, who died or was killed at the same time as Cleopatra.
(4) While Caranus is mentioned in a couple of the sources, if he did exist, his death is laid at Alexander's door, not Olympias'. His existence is by no means sure, and the body of opinion is that he didn't.
(5) I haven't read Lane Fox for a while, but the sources do not indicate that Cleopatra's daughter (and Justin is clear that is was a daughter, not a son) was 'tortured' to death, just that she was killed.

Hope this helps.

All the best

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:45 pm**

Dear Marcus

Thank you a million for your most comprehensive and extensive answer. It makes a lot of sense what you say. The atrocities I bet, are just unfounded allegations and lurid sensationalism. there is a lot of errors and inconsistencies circulating regarding this whole matter, and I agree with you and Robin Lane Fox.

1. But one question though: You say that Justin is more likely in this case. In what sense? Do you think that Olympias killed the daughter?

So according to the contradictory sources we couldn't really say if Olympias killed any of the children. And maybe she had something to do with Cleopatra death... and maybe she didn't.... it's like Lane Fox says, they all died but we don't know how...

Btw, isn't Lane Fox just the coolest ?

he is really the rock star of scholars

Again, Marcus, I commend you for the generosity shown in terms of your time and effort. I hope to be dialoguing with you again, my friend

best wishes
Robert

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:06 pm**

robbie wrote:1. But one question though: You say that Justin is more likely in this case. In what sense? Do you think that Olympias killed the daughter?

So according to the contradictory sources we couldn't really say if Olympias killed any of the children. And maybe she had something to do with Cleopatra death... and maybe she didn't.... it's like Lane Fox says, they all died but we don't know how...

Hi Robbie,

No problem at all. You'll have gathered that Pothos is a bit of a labour of love for many of us - no way would we ever begrudge the time spent here!

With regard to your question - I say that Justin is more likely, simply because the method of despatching Cleopatra is more prosaic than Pausanias' boiling alive story, and it seems more in keeping with the usual nature of such things. Murder or execution was rarely 'complicated', like some devious method employed by an ancient world James Bond villain. You stab, poison or strangle people, end of story. Therefore, although we should approach Justin with a degree of caution, it seems more likely that his description matches the truth of the matter.

Personally, I would suggest that there is little doubt that Olympias had a hand in Cleopatra's death and, assuming that Cleopatra did indeed have a baby girl (and there is no reason to question this), that Olympias killed her, too. Whether she did this with Alexander's complicity we cannot say, although Plutarch exculpates Alexander.

However, there is also this to think of. The murder of Caranus (irrespective of whether he existed) is clearly laid at Alexander's door. Alexander, quite reasonably (in some respects), put to death those male members of the family who might have proved to be a threat to his throne. Arrhidaeus was spared because he was clearly unfit to be king, and so not a threat.

Cleopatra's daughter was no threat, and perhaps it is *her* death that Alexander was so angry about when he heard about it, rather than merely the murder of Cleopatra. One might understand Olympias' desire to kill off Cleopatra; but to kill the daughter as well went way beyond what was acceptable - inasmuch as there was no reason to kill her whatsoever. Perhaps it is *that* murder, rather than that of Cleopatra, which accords Olympias her murderous reputation, whereas she had a reason to kill Cleopatra, and Alexander had a reason to kill Caranus.

All the best

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:14 pm**

It is really only the manner of the executions that is in doubt, personally I would find it more likely that the dolt Justin confused Olympias' execution of Adea/Eurydike by making her hang herself with that of Kleopatra/Eurydike. The fragment of Kleitarchos describing the burnt child sacrifices to Kronos might have a context at the beginning of the reign rather than Tyre and as Olympias is the culprit it would not spoil his tale of a King ruined by good Fortune but serve as pre-figurement. Diodoros not choosing to include it in his brief account of the beginning of the reign as he knew he had a Moloch set-piece coming with Agathokles' invasion of Africa. It does not seem the sort of detail Duris might invent given his Macedonian patrons nor Pausanias himself.

Olympias desecrated Iollas' tomb, executed Kassandros' brother and friends she was no angel, even if you want to dismiss these as propaganda the treatment of Adea and Philip III cannot be easily brushed aside.

Karanos, if he existed cannot have been Kleopatra's child as there was only time for one full term pregnancy and the product was Europe. At a time of large scale clearance of dynastic rivals it is quite perverse to reject the statements that Europe and Kleopatra joined the sorry roll call. Rather than the story being an artefact of the later propaganda war it could equally well be a white-washing of Alexander's own involvement in the murders.

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:29 pm**

TO MARCUS :Thank you. Again, I agree with you. However, maybe she did have a hand in Europa's murder, and then again maybe she didn't. We don't know the manner in which she died.

1. You mentioned "Pausanias' boiling alive story". What do you mean by that? I thought Pausanias only mentioned the burning alive, bronze oven filled with fire?

2. So even if Olympias didn't care for Cleopatra, she would have no reason whatsoever to kill them in such horrible ways, I guess?

Best wishes,
Robert

TO AGESILAOS: You mentioned "The fragment of Kleitarchos describing the burnt child sacrifices to Kronos might have a context at the beginning of the reign rather than Tyre and as Olympias is the culprit it would not spoil his tale of a King ruined by good Fortune but serve as pre-figurement."

1. What exactly do you mean by this? In what context does Kleitarchos mention the burnt child? Is he talking about Caranus? And, who, according to him, scarified the child? This would, then, too, also be an unreliable allegation?

Best wishes,
Robert

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:59 pm**

[The scholiast offers several explanations of the expression "sardonic smile"] ... Cleitarchus says that the Phoenicians, and esp. the Carthaginians, worship Kronos, and when they want to succeed in something important, they swear by one of their children that should they achieve what they desire, they would sacrifice the child to the god. They have a bronze statue of Cronus, standing up with its hands stretched, palms upwards, above a bronze oven, which burns the child. When the fire which is inside it touches the child's body, its limbs contract, and the body seems to grin as people do when they laugh, until it is shriveled up by the fire and disappears into the oven ... [which is why this kind of smile is called "sardonic,"

The normal context is clearly sensible given the Phoenician connection but this does not preclude a note due to the method of execution as stated by Pausanias, he found it somewhere and does seem to have read Kleitarchos; this does not mean that Kleitarchos himself might not have invented the method, of course!

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:45 pm**

Thank you agesilaos. You are always so helpful and I really appreciate it.

Just in case Marcus scrolls past my latest questions when checking the update status on this thread , I'll repeat them

TO MARCUS :Thank you. Again, I agree with you. However, maybe she did have a hand in Europa's murder, and then again maybe she didn't. We don't know the manner in which she died.

1. You mentioned "Pausanias' boiling alive story". What do you mean by that? I thought Pausanias only mentioned the burning alive, bronze oven filled with fire?

2. So even if Olympias didn't care for Cleopatra (to say the least), she would have no reason whatsoever to kill them in such horrible ways, I guess?

Best wishes,
Robert

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:40 pm**

Both you and Marcus are missing the point of Pausanias' method; dragging a person across a brazen oven would be a fairly efficient method of flaying them, the skin separates and sticks to the bronze which also cauterizes the torn blood vessels ensuring the maximum pain, horror and lingering death

The degree of pain a person is willing to inflict on another is contingent on a great many parameters but we must remember that we are not dealing with a politically correct liberal society (that said there is less evidence for colour prejudice in the ancient world than in modern 'anti'-racist groups); a common theme in mythology is letting the punishment fit the crime ; in Olympias' eyes was Kleopatra's crime not being younger and more beautiful? The degree of physical damage is also linked to how personal the slight is, It hardly comes more personal than losing your position as chief wife to a young, dare I say, bimbo (let's face it she was not clever enough to run to Attalos in Asia or throw herself on Alexander's mercy as Alexander Lynkestes had. It is a mistake to export our modern sensibilities to the ancient world; there was no real concept humanity, everyday life entailed forcing people, slaves to do inhuman tasks, the suffering of the Athenian prisoners post-Syracuse seems dreadfully cruel until one considers the slaves at Laurion; this was a world where cruelty, especially in revenge, was the norm

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:50 pm**

marcus wrote:
Justin 12.6.14
His thoughts then turned to Parmenion and Philotas, to his cousin Amyntas, to his murdered stepmother and brothers, to Attalus, Eurylochus, Pausanias and the other Macedonian chieftains he had eliminated.

Paulus Orosius 3.18.8
The story is that he slew his cousin Amyntas, put to death his stepmother and her brothers, and murdered Parmenio and Philotas.

Might I ask who Eurylochus was? And is this Pausanias Philip's murderer? Do we know if Cleopatra/Eurydike had brothers that Alexander eliminated? And is it possible that Caranus, if he existed, was the son of another of Philip's wives, although perhaps still a child? Thanks in advance.

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:35 pm**

OK, so what are you saying agesilaos?

We do not know how Eurydice and her children died; it's only allegations in less reliable late sources according to Lane Fox. Btw, the sources contradict one another - Eurydice couldn't very well have been dragged through fire along with being forced to commit suicide? Also, the bronze oven is only one of several sources; another source says mentions a red-hot charcoal brazier. Do you see my point? I don't think Olympias would go to such lengths. Yes, she may have been "this" and "that", but I don't think she'd go that far. Exhibiting certain personality traits doesn't necessarily translate into that person being a hardcore-vindictive, sadistic torturer as well. Moreover, if the death that upset Alexander was indeed that of Europa, then I'd say it is a strong indicator of such things being anything than acceptable during the era.

I'm just asking here; the bronze oven was filled with fire, wasn't it?

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:12 pm**

robbie wrote:TO MARCUS :Thank you. Again, I agree with you. However, maybe she did have a hand in Europa's murder, and then again maybe she didn't. We don't know the manner in which she died.

1. You mentioned "Pausanias' boiling alive story". What do you mean by that? I thought Pausanias only mentioned the burning alive, bronze oven filled with fire?

2. So even if Olympias didn't care for Cleopatra (to say the least), she would have no reason whatsoever to kill them in such horrible ways, I guess?

On the Pausanias story, that was a pure mistake on my part. He says burning alive, but I typed boiling alive. Human error!

I'm also responding to Agesilaos' point, where he says "Both you and Marcus are missing the point of Pausanias' method; dragging a person across a brazen oven would be a fairly efficient method of flaying them, the skin separates and sticks to the bronze which also cauterizes the torn blood vessels ensuring the maximum pain, horror and lingering death".

No, I'm not missing the point, but I'm not entirely convinced. Of course we are not talking about a modern liberal society; but while I accept your point about making the punishment fit the crime, it would be helpful if we knew more about Olympias' motives. The desecration of Iollas' tomb and her other acts after 323 can easily be explained away as very public revenge. But there are problems with Cleopatra.

For a start, once Philip was dead, Cleopatra and her baby daughter were not dynastic rivals to Alexander, and with Alexander as the new king, Olympias had regained her former status (and more, perhaps). If a half-sister were to present any threat to Alexander, then he had quite a few others who appear not to have suffered for being so. I can buy, to some extent, that Olympias had disliked being 'usurped' by a 'newer model', but until Cleopatra produced a son, she hardly threatened Olympias' position, surely? The only indication of such usurpation comes from Attalos' comments at the wedding feast regarding legitimacy; but all that becomes moot once Philip is dead, sans son by Cleopatra.

In no way do I reject the idea that Cleopatra and Europa were victims of the same purge of dynastic rivals; but the idea worries me because they weren't dynastic rivals. Of course, their murder also gave Alexander a reason to do away with Attalos, with whom he did have a legitimate quarrel; but he already had 'evidence' of Attalos' negotiations with Athens. Perhaps the murder of the females meant that it was now absolutely necessary to deal with Attalos, if for some reason a more personal grievance than the obvious political one were required.

All in all, there is no reason to doubt that Olympias killed them, with or without Alexander's knowledge/consent. My objection to the method is not due to modern, liberal sensitivities, but because I cannot see a reason why such a method would be used, when the usual methods employed were far more prosaic. If we knew that Pausanias' story were true I would have no problem with it; but I have to retain my doubts.

Edited to add: I failed to address one thing you said. You said: "However, maybe she did have a hand in Europa's murder, and then again maybe she didn't." Just to be clear, I see no reason to doubt that Olympias killed both Cleopatra and Europa. The question is more about Alexander's complicity.

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:18 pm**

Alexias wrote:Might I ask who Eurylochus was? And is this Pausanias Philip's murderer? Do we know if Cleopatra/Eurydike had brothers that Alexander eliminated? And is it possible that Caranus, if he existed, was the son of another of Philip's wives, although perhaps still a child? Thanks in advance.

Hi Alexias,

We don't know much about Eurylochus, but he appears to have been one of Philip's officers - quite a prominent one. Little is known, apart from the fact that he acted as an ambassador for Philip in 346BC, and he was also a mercenary commander in 342BC. But, as Heckel says, he must have belonged to one of the prominent families who presented a threat to Alexander in 336BC, because he was among those killed.

The Pausanias, presumably, is indeed Philip's murderer - although it is interesting that he should be counted amongst Alexander's 'victims'.

ATB

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:33 pm**

Thanks Marcus

Again, the words of Robin Lane Fox concerning the burning: "allegations only in the least reliable of late Alexander sources and only concerns the baby..."

But who was Pausanias from whom you referenced as a source?

Posted: **Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:43 pm**

robbie wrote:TO MARCUS : Excellent answers given, Marcus. I agree with you on most parts.

TO AGESILAOS: You wrote: dragging a person across a brazen oven would be a fairly efficient method of flaying them, the skin separates and sticks to the bronze which also cauterizes the torn blood vessels ensuring the maximum pain, horror and lingering death

The bronze oven would have been filled with fire?

I know this was addressed to Agesilaos, but as I'm here ...

Yes. Burning brightly until the oven was of sufficient heat to do the aforementioned flaying. A lovely way to go ...

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