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Alexander's remains

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:04 am
by marcus
Here's an article I saw over at History of the Ancient World. I haven't read it yet, but a quick glance at the incipit suggests it's about the relative claims of Siwa, Aegae and Alexandria to hold Alexander's remains.

ATB

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:43 pm
by agesilaos
Have just read it, and it is more about the implications of the potential burial sites No mention of the Liber de Morte, which leads to her thinking that Arrian's brief aside is the only mention of the story that Alexander tried to throw himself into the Euphrates and thus disappear! Too thin for my taste, I like an essay with a bit more meat

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:28 am
by chris_taylor
marcus wrote:Here's an article I saw over at History of the Ancient World. I haven't read it yet, but a quick glance at the incipit suggests it's about the relative claims of Siwa, Aegae and Alexandria to hold Alexander's remains.
It a review article of everything we don't know for sure and not at all.

But where is this "silver crested helmet from tomb II" at Vergina, she-says-Borza-says-may-have- belonged-to-Alexander? I looked through Latsis e-book on Pella & did a Google image search, but I can't find it, and without JSTOR access, I can't read Borza's paper in the original :mrgreen:

Chris.

PS: I'm so exasperated by not having access JSTOR, I signed the petition with the US government to give the public free access to scholarly papers. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... h/wDX82FLQ

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:43 am
by marcus
chris_taylor wrote: But where is this "silver crested helmet from tomb II" at Vergina, she-says-Borza-says-may-have- belonged-to-Alexander?
Hi Chris,

I assume it's this one: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Cities/VerginaB004.html.

The only other picture I have is from an exhibition catalogue, and the picture's rather dark. Also, I can't scan it without damaging the spine of the book, but when I get a chance I'll try to scan it with my hand-held scanner (a little toy that I haven't used much). It looks as if it is displayed in the Vergina museum with the rest of the panoply - the breastplate and greaves that are far more easy to find in searches!

All the best

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:57 am
by chris_taylor
marcus wrote:
chris_taylor wrote: But where is this "silver crested helmet from tomb II" at Vergina, she-says-Borza-says-may-have- belonged-to-Alexander?
Hi Chris,

I assume it's this one: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Cities/VerginaB004.html.

The only other picture I have is from an exhibition catalogue, and the picture's rather dark. Also, I can't scan it without damaging the spine of the book, but when I get a chance I'll try to scan it with my hand-held scanner (a little toy that I haven't used much). It looks as if it is displayed in the Vergina museum with the rest of the panoply - the breastplate and greaves that are far more easy to find in searches! All the best
:shock: I thought the companions wore Boetian helmets?!

Chris.

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:08 pm
by Taphoi
As regards the idea that some of the objects in Tomb II were Alexander's: of course they were. If the tomb is that of Philip II, then the objects had been his, but became Alexander's upon Philip's assassination and were then promptly entombed with Philip. If the tomb is that of Philip III Arrhidaeus (which is improbable, but which cannot yet be ruled out), then it is still probable that some were previously owned by Alexander. Usually it is the supposedly Asian character of the "Scythian" quiver that is cited to support a date for Tomb II after Alexander's conquests, but this is to ignore Philip's extensive contacts with "European" Scythians. After decades of febrile argument, it can still comfortably be asserted that all the artifacts from Tomb II are consistent with their having been owned by Philip II. If this were the tomb of Philip III and it incorporated Alexander's Asian acquisitions, then the silverware should really have included many more Achaemenid items from the massive Persian treasure hoards. It is incredibly difficult to believe in a tomb of Philip III crammed full of rich grave goods and yet containing nothing unambiguously Achaemenid or Indian to testify to Alexander's conquests having just taken place, which is where Borza wants to take us.

Why did nobody tell Lauren O'Connor that Libanius states that Alexander's body was on display in Alexandria in AD391? Why did nobody tell her that Alexandria is not located on the River Nile?

It is also a pity that she has gone with the idea that Ptolemy saw the corpse of Alexander as a political symbol to bolster his rule (which is an entirely modern and anachronistic notion). It is good however that she recognises that it did the Ptolemies no good as such. But in fact all the ancient sources say that Ptolemy took the body to Egypt because he was personally obligated by having sworn to follow Alexander's widely referenced last wish to be taken to Ammon. Apart from Aristander's prophecy (which Lauren unfortunately misses and which was superstitious rather than political), they say nothing of the body's symbolic power bolstering its possessor. In fact the Alexander Romance (Pseudo-Callisthenes) has the Egyptian priests in Memphis assert the exact opposite: that wherever the corpse lay should have "no rest from war and turmoil". And indeed the history (e.g. Arrian's Events after Alexander) is that Ptolemy's seizure of the corpse was influential in deciding Perdiccas to attack Ptolemy rather than defend Ionia against Antipater.

Best wishes,

Andrew

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:33 pm
by marcus
chris_taylor wrote:
marcus wrote:
chris_taylor wrote: But where is this "silver crested helmet from tomb II" at Vergina, she-says-Borza-says-may-have- belonged-to-Alexander?
Hi Chris,

I assume it's this one: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Cities/VerginaB004.html.

The only other picture I have is from an exhibition catalogue, and the picture's rather dark. Also, I can't scan it without damaging the spine of the book, but when I get a chance I'll try to scan it with my hand-held scanner (a little toy that I haven't used much). It looks as if it is displayed in the Vergina museum with the rest of the panoply - the breastplate and greaves that are far more easy to find in searches! All the best
:shock: I thought the companions wore Boetian helmets?!

Chris.
It is generally accepted that they did; but Philip wasn't a "Companion" like the others. Also, while most probably did, it doesn't mean that some didn't, and Philip would have wanted to stand out as a commander.

I don't see that the helmet is inconsistent with the idea of it being Philip's, as least based on the style of helmet - there were other styles found in at Aegae, after all.

ATB

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:23 pm
by amyntoros
Taphoi wrote: It is also a pity that she has gone with the idea that Ptolemy saw the corpse of Alexander as a political symbol to bolster his rule (which is an entirely modern and anachronistic notion). It is good however that she recognises that it did the Ptolemies no good as such. But in fact all the ancient sources say that Ptolemy took the body to Egypt because he was personally obligated by having sworn to follow Alexander's widely referenced last wish to be taken to Ammon. Apart from Aristander's prophecy (which Lauren unfortunately misses and which was superstitious rather than political), they say nothing of the body's symbolic power bolstering its possessor. In fact the Alexander Romance (Pseudo-Callisthenes) has the Egyptian priests in Memphis assert the exact opposite: that wherever the corpse lay should have "no rest from war and turmoil". And indeed the history (e.g. Arrian's Events after Alexander) is that Ptolemy's seizure of the corpse was influential in deciding Perdiccas to attack Ptolemy rather than defend Ionia against Antipater.
We 've been here before. The question of whether "Ptolemy saw the corpse of Alexander as a political symbol to bolster his rule" has been discussed at length in the thread: No Cremation. In this thread, those (including myself) who see the abduction of Alexander's corpse as a politcally motivated event are not following an "entirely modern and anachronistic notion" but simply disagreeing with you.

Best regards,

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:51 pm
by marcus
amyntoros wrote:In this thread, those (including myself) who see the abduction of Alexander's corpse as a politically motivated event are not following an "entirely modern and anachronistic notion" but simply disagreeing with you.
And, bearing in mind the propaganda put out by the Successors, in all sorts of different ways, it cannot be dismissed as "modern and anachronistic".

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:48 am
by Taphoi
amyntoros wrote:We 've been here before. The question of whether "Ptolemy saw the corpse of Alexander as a political symbol to bolster his rule" has been discussed at length in the thread: No Cremation. In this thread, those (including myself) who see the abduction of Alexander's corpse as a politcally motivated event are not following an "entirely modern and anachronistic notion" but simply disagreeing with you.
Hi amyntoros,

Obviously, it is perfectly legitimate (and I actually encourage it) for anyone nowadays and anciently too to have an opinion regarding Ptolemy's motives. I would not dream of complaining about that. However, in a history paper the starting point should be to describe the motives ascribed to Ptolemy by the early sources - they were in the best position to judge. What I therefore complain bitterly about is that modern historians on this matter (now including Lauren) have proceeded directly to the conclusion that Ptolemy acted to bolster his political position in the matter of the hijacking of Alexander's corpse without explaining that the ancient sources give an entirely different motive and do not say anything about the corpse bolstering Ptolemy's political position. Proceeding to conclusions without stating that you are contradicting the source evidence is properly termed propaganda rather than history. For the record, the sources are clear that Ptolemy took Alexander's body Egypt because Alexander had ordered it and Lucian actually states that Ptolemy had sworn to carry out this order:
Lucian - Dialogues of the Dead 13 wrote:Alexander (dead): I've been lying in Babylon for three days now, but my guardsman Ptolemy promises that, whenever he gets a respite from present disturbances, he'll take me away to Egypt and bury me there, so that I may become one of the gods of the Egyptians.
Holkias - Liber de Morte 119 wrote:Alexander (Will): Ptolemy is to take charge of conveying my corpse to Egypt.
Curtius 10.4.4 wrote:(Alexander) added instructions that they should order his body to be taken to Ammon.
Justin 12.15.7 & 13.4.6 wrote:At last he ordered his body to be buried in the temple of Ammon... Arridaeus was commissioned to convey the body of Alexander to the temple of Ammon.
Diodorus 18.3.5 wrote:The transportation of the body of the deceased king and the preparation of the vehicle that was to carry the body to Ammon they assigned to Arrhidaeus.
Best wishes,

Andrew

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:56 am
by agesilaos
Outside of legalistic semantics when one says that an object ‘belonged’ to someone, the helmet in question here, for instance, it means the object was the personal equipment of that individual not that it was part of their inherited property. Otherwise every object discovered in Northern Greece dating to 479 BC or earlier might justly be described as once having belonged to Xerxes I! Such sophistry remains what Aristophanes saw it for all those years ago.

I am not aware of any great accumulation of Achaemenid material ever being found in Macedonia, on your logic we would have to conclude that Alexander never conquered the East. The greater part of the loot was probably melted down and, in any case, probably remained in Asia. Antipater, returning with the kings had to sneak away from his troops demands for payment; he would not seem to be returning with a vast treasury.

It is absolute and crass stupidity to extrapolate from the Roman conqueror of Egypt’s disdain for the royal House of Ptolemy that the Graeco-Egyptian subjects of these rulers shared that disdain, ‘an entirely modern and anachronistic notion’ if ever one were evinced.

Here are the sources I can find on Ptolemy’s motivation
This was the enclosure which contained the burial-places of the kings and that of Alexander; for Ptolemy the son of Lagus, forestalled Perdiccas by taking the body away from him when he was bringing it down from Babylon and was turning aside towards Aegypt, moved by greed and a desire to make that country his own.Furthermore, Perdiccas lost his life, having been slain by his soldiers at the time when Ptolemy attacked him and hemmed him up in a desert island. So Perdiccas was killed, having been transfixed by his soldiers' sarissae when they attacked him; but the kings who were with him, both Aridaeus and the children of Alexander, and also Rhoxanê, Alexander's wife, departed for Macedonia; and the body of Alexander was carried off by Ptolemy and given sepulture in Alexandria, where it still now lies — not, however, in the same sarcophagus as before, for the present one is made of glass, whereas the one wherein Ptolemy laid it was made of gold. The latter was plundered by the Ptolemy nicknamed "Cocces" and "Pareisactus," who came over from Syria but was immediately expelled, so that his plunder proved unprofitable to him.

Strabo XVII 1 8
This makes no mention of Ammon, only ‘greed and a desire to make [Egypt] his own. Thus your ‘all ancient sources’ evaporates. Also it would seem that the defiling of Alexander’s tomb was the immediate cause of Ptolemy Cocces’ expulsion, demonstrating popular feeling for Alexander’s divinity as late as the first century BC (this is thought to be Ptolemy X Alexander I Philometor).

Diod XVIII xxviii 2

When Arrhidaeus had spent nearly two years in making ready this work, he brought the body of the king from Babylon to Egypt.3 Ptolemy, moreover, doing honour to Alexander, went to meet it with an army as far as Syria, and, receiving the body, deemed it worthy of the greatest consideration. He decided for the present not to send it to Ammon, but to entomb it in the city that had been founded by Alexander himself, which lacked little of being the most renowned of the cities of the inhabited earth. 4 There he prepared a precinct worthy the glory of Alexander in size and construction. Entombing him in this and honouring him with sacrifices such as are paid to demigods and with magnificent games, he won fair requital not only from men but also from the gods. 5 For men, because of his graciousness and nobility of heart, came together eagerly from all sides to Alexandria and gladly enrolled for the campaign, although the army of the kings was about to fight against that of Ptolemy; and, even though the risks were manifest and great, yet all of them willingly took upon themselves at their personal risk the preservation of Ptolemy's safety. 6 The gods also saved him unexpectedly from the greatest dangers on account of his courage and his honest treatment of all his friends.
Whilst this does mention Ammon, though only Ptolemy’s decision NOT to take the body there, it also implies that political benefits did accrue.

Aelian,
Chap. LXIV.
Of Alexander dead.
Alexander, Son of Philip and Olympia, ending his daies at Babylon, lay there dead, who had said that he was the Son of Jupiter. And whilest they who were about him contested for the Kingdome, he remained without Burial, which the poorest persons enjoy, common Nature requiring that the dead should be interred ; but he was left thirty daies unburied, until Aristander the Telmißian, either through Divine instinct, or some other motive, came into the midst of the Macedonians, and said to them, "That Alexander was the most fortunate King of all Ages, both living and dead ; and that the Gods had told him, that the Land which should receive the Body in which his Soul first dwelt, should be absolutely happy and unvanquishable for ever." Hearing this, there arose a great emulation amongst them, every one desiring to send this Carriage to his own Countrey, that he might have this Rarity the Pledge of a firm undeclinable Kingdome. But Ptolemee, if we may credit Report, †† stole away the Body, and with all speed conveyed it to the City of Alexander in Ægypt. The rest of the Macedonians were quiet, onely Perdiccas pursued him ; not so much moved by love of Alexander, or pious care of the dead Body, as enflamed by the predictions of Aristander. As soon as he overtook Ptolemee there was a very sharp Fight about the dead Body, in a manner akin to that which happened concerning the Image [of Hellen] in Troy, celebrated by Homer, who saith that Apollo in defence of Æneas engaged amidst the Heroes ; for Ptolemee having made an Image like to Alexander clothed it with the Royal Robe, and with noble Funeral Ornaments, then placing it in one of the Persian Chariots, adorned the Bier magnificently with Silver, Gold, and Ivory ; but the true Body of Alexander he sent meanly ordered by obscure and private waies. Perdiccas seizing the Image of the dead man, and the richly-adorned Chariot, gave over the pursuit, thinking he had gained the prize. But too late he found that he was couzened, for he had not got that at which he aimed.
Makes the motive explicitly political and based on the prophecy of Aristander.
Pausanias I vi 3

[3] He crossed over to Egypt in person, and killed Cleomenes, whom Alexander had appointed satrap of that country, considering him a friend of Perdiccas, and therefore not faithful to himself; and the Macedonians who had been entrusted with the task of carrying the corpse of Alexander to Aegae, he persuaded to hand it over to him. And he proceeded to bury it with Macedonian rites in Memphis, but, knowing that Perdiccas would make war, he kept Egypt garrisoned.
Again no mention of a burial at Siwah.

And Pseudo-Kallisthenes has the intended burial place Memphis!
Then straightway they made him ready for burial, and they put him in the coffin and carried it on a wagon drawn by mules, and brought it to the city of Babylon of Egypt.' And as they were journeying therewith they arrived at Baremoun (Pelusion) and the people of Memphis and many of Memphis the people of the government of that city went out to receive the body of Alexander the king, the Macedonian, and they sang divine praises [unto him]. And as they were bringing him into Egypt and were carrying him round about from place to place and from district to district in the country, Sikises, the governor, and Kestes said unto Kinos, "Do not bury him here, but in the city which he himself founded, for it is meet that his body should lie in that city without fear. and without disturbance, and without fighting for no earthly king whatsoever conquered Alexander the king."' So Ptolemy built a tomb for him
[in Alexandria], and laid the body of Alexander the king in it.
Rule one check what the sources say: Ms O’Connor would do well to note that too!

It would be interesting to hear your arguments for thinking Alexander may have been in Nektanebo’s sarcophagus, maybe you could post your paper, she notes your work only by empty assertions and does not mention a single argument; this is not scholarship.

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:24 pm
by Taphoi
agesilaos wrote:
This was the enclosure which contained the burial-places of the kings and that of Alexander; for Ptolemy the son of Lagus, forestalled Perdiccas by taking the body away from him when he was bringing it down from Babylon and was turning aside towards Aegypt, moved by greed and a desire to make that country his own.Furthermore, Perdiccas lost his life, having been slain by his soldiers at the time when Ptolemy attacked him and hemmed him up in a desert island. So Perdiccas was killed, having been transfixed by his soldiers' sarissae when they attacked him; but the kings who were with him, both Aridaeus and the children of Alexander, and also Rhoxanê, Alexander's wife, departed for Macedonia; and the body of Alexander was carried off by Ptolemy and given sepulture in Alexandria, where it still now lies — not, however, in the same sarcophagus as before, for the present one is made of glass, whereas the one wherein Ptolemy laid it was made of gold. The latter was plundered by the Ptolemy nicknamed "Cocces" and "Pareisactus," who came over from Syria but was immediately expelled, so that his plunder proved unprofitable to him.

Strabo XVII 1 8
This makes no mention of Ammon, only ‘greed and a desire to make [Egypt] his own. Thus your ‘all ancient sources’ evaporates. Also it would seem that the defiling of Alexander’s tomb was the immediate cause of Ptolemy Cocces’ expulsion, demonstrating popular feeling for Alexander’s divinity as late as the first century BC (this is thought to be Ptolemy X Alexander I Philometor).
Strabo means that it was Perdiccas (NOT Ptolemy) who "was turning aside towards Aegypt, moved by greed and a desire to make that country his own". Ptolemy had already been running Egypt for two years at this time (321BC).
agesilaos wrote:Rule one check what the sources say...
Rule two: understand what they are talking about!

You will find all the sources that you mention and many others in my books and papers on the subject of Alexander's tomb. The copyright of my paper on the sarcophagus in Greece & Rome is held by the journal, so I cannot post copies. However, they gave permission for it to be reproduced as Appendix B of my book, The Quest for the Tomb of Alexander the Great, which is available (including Kindle).

Best wishes,

Andrew

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:42 pm
by agesilaos
A hit, a palpable hit!

Still, it does not mention any desire to take it to Ammon in line with Alexander's alleged wishes and such a motivation is unlikely given Ptolemy's possession of the body for forty years and his singular failure to move it there.

Now, where did I leave that petard? :shock:

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:39 pm
by Taphoi
marcus wrote:
amyntoros wrote:In this thread, those (including myself) who see the abduction of Alexander's corpse as a politically motivated event are not following an "entirely modern and anachronistic notion" but simply disagreeing with you.
And, bearing in mind the propaganda put out by the Successors, in all sorts of different ways, it cannot be dismissed as "modern and anachronistic".
Hi Marcus,

I meant anachronistic in the sense that Ptolemy diverted the catafalque 16 years before he declared himself to be king. At the time (321BC) he clearly had no royal aspirations. The proof of this is what happened when Perdiccas was assassinated a few months later. Ptolemy was offered the guardianship of the kings, a far more potent symbol of authority than Alexander's corpse, and he turned it down flat. Furthermore he immediately relinquished possession of the kings. Nobody who says that Ptolemy seized the corpse to bolster his power has ever managed satisfactorily to explain why he therefore relinquished the kings in the same period.

The truth is far more human and is the only truth that fits the facts: Lucian is precisely correct in saying that Alexander wanted to be taken to Egypt/Ammon in order to become a god and Ptolemy, his loving half-brother, was determined to make his last wish come true. It is clear from Diodorus that Ptolemy originally envisaged a tomb at Siwa, but abandoned the idea in favour of Memphis. In fact the location within Egypt was immaterial, since it was the apotheosis that mattered to Alexander. Alexander was always centrally motivated by his emulation of his ancestor Achilles, who became deified after his death - indeed he is called dios Achilleus (divine Achilles) by Homer. Similarly Alexander becomes dios Alexandros in inscriptions shortly after his death. In Egypt, Ptolemy appointed the first high priest of Alexander and gave Alexander the rams horns of Ammon on his early coinage. I am no romantic. I will tell you that Cleopatra VII was motivated by politics rather than love. But the evidence makes it clear that Ptolemy Soter was motivated by love for his dead brother rather than by politics. He was the true Philadelphus in fact.

Best wishes,

Andrew

Re: Alexander's remains

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:54 pm
by marcus
Taphoi wrote:Lucian is precisely correct in saying that Alexander wanted to be taken to Egypt/Ammon in order to become a god and Ptolemy, his loving half-brother, was determined to make his last wish come true. It is clear from Diodorus that Ptolemy originally envisaged a tomb at Siwa, but abandoned the idea in favour of Memphis. In fact the location within Egypt was immaterial, since it was the apotheosis that mattered to Alexander.
I have to be very quick tonight, Andrew, and this isn't the more detailed reply that your post merits.

The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, though - as the location was immaterial, one might question why Ptolemy decided to make the change from Siwa to Memphis. If Alexander had wanted to be buried at Siwa, then surely the "loving brother" (which relationship is, of course, far from proven) would have acceded to Alexander's exact wishes, unless he had an ulterior motive for relocating to Memphis? I have no doubt that he was eager to accede to Alexander's wishes out of respect/love/whatever; but he was hardly going to pass up the opportunity of capitalising on the political goldmine of habeas-ing the corpus (as it were). After all, we know from Eumenes' actions that even the 'ghost' of Alexander was a powerful tool for legitimising one's actions and orders.

ATB