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Has everyone seen this news about the bronze Alexander statue found amongst some stolen artifacts repossessed in Greece? The article includes the following, along with a photograph:

Experts say the Alexander statue appeared to come from the workshop of Lysippos, Alexander's personal sculptor. Chemical tests are being conducted at the Thessaloniki Archaeological Museum to see whether the sculpture is an original or a contemporary copy, since Lysippos' workshop, which employed several artists, also produced replicas of original works.

I'm not sure exactly how chemical tests can verify whether or not this work came from Lysippos' workshop and I'd be interested in finding more information. Sometimes it seems as if any newfound Hellenistic statue is claimed to be an Alexander even when the resemblance is poor, and then when it's obviously an Alexander it must be the work of someone famous. However, if - and I stress the word IF - it could be proven that this statue was made by Lysippos it might have some small effect on the way we picture Alexander. I mean, this statue has one solid little body, much more Fedor Emelianenko than Colin Farrell. Just look at those thighs.

Best regards,

It surely is Alexander, who I have always thought was a very sturdy little fellow...but those thighs! Speed skaters would covet that muscle...

athenas owl wrote:...but those thighs! Speed skaters would covet that muscle...

So much better to ride... with... horseback...

No stiruups you know.

The Alexander statuette has a head that verges on a copy of the Pergamon Alexander and the body is in the classic and widely reproduced pose of "Alexander with a Lance", which was indeed originated in a work by Lysippus (Plutarch, Moralia 360D).

In a similar vein, the head of a young man in Roman style is trying extremely hard to be an Antinous.

Absolutely remarkable luck to find two such extraordinarily commercial Greek bronzes in the same car boot Or else grounds for profound suspicion of their authenticity You decide!

Best wishes,

Andrew

Very interesting - and I see what you all mean about the thighs!

Taphoi wrote:Absolutely remarkable luck to find two such extraordinarily commercial Greek bronzes in the same car boot Or else grounds for profound suspicion of their authenticity You decide!

It is a bit serendipitous, isn't it? Still, the 'chemical tests', whatever they might be, will surely determine whether either or both are authentic, even if they show nothing else.

ATB

Isn't the Hermes Azara supposed to be based on Lysippos? The face is certainly different than the one here...which does indeed look like the one from Pergamon, only more child-like for lack of a better word.

Paralus, I know what you mean about horseback riding, and maybe his short little legs needed the extra musculature, but yikes...that statute is just disturbing.

athenas owl wrote:Paralus, I know what you mean about horseback riding, and maybe his short little legs needed the extra musculature, but yikes...that statute is just disturbing.

If the bronze is an original / copy of an original / based on a copy of the original or, to all intents and purposes goes back to an original, that original may have exaggerated matters including the thighs. I’m sure the bloke wasn’t beyond “airbrushing” his image to suit his own view of himself.

Can’t bring to mind a statue of Octavian sans teeth or looking older than, say, his thirties or so. In the same vein I’d doubt that Seleucus ever had any work of art commissioned showing him being legged aboard a horse at 77, nary a tooth to be seen. Exaggeration for effect, yes, but Alexander will not have been beyond wanting his artistic representations “just so”.

I do think that riding a horse, sans stirrups, will have contributed to leg musculature though.

Not being a materials scientist (that is the purview of Salaminia), I'd imagine the "chemical tests" centre on the make-up of the actual alloy (percentages of the two metals), the "purity" of the metals used, the amount and nature of any impurities in the final alloy and what they might tell us about the metallurgical techniques and dates they correspond to or some such.

Paralus wrote:

athenas owl wrote:Paralus, I know what you mean about horseback riding, and maybe his short little legs needed the extra musculature, but yikes...that statute is just disturbing.

If the bronze is an original / copy of an original / based on a copy of the original or, to all intents and purposes goes back to an original, that original may have exaggerated matters including the thighs. I’m sure the bloke wasn’t beyond “airbrushing” his image to suit his own view of himself.

I have to say, having looked at the picture again, and those thighs ... one heck of a prop forward!

ATB

marcus wrote:I have to say, having looked at the picture again, and those thighs ... one heck of a prop forward!

Going by the extant source material he'd have given "touch, pause, engage" an entirely new slant.

Given his height, though, I feel "the great" was a Macedonian hooker.

Paralus wrote:

marcus wrote:I have to say, having looked at the picture again, and those thighs ... one heck of a prop forward!

Going by the extant source material he'd have given "touch, pause, engage" an entirely new slant.

Given his height, though, I feel "the great" was a Macedonian hooker.

Yeah, that's true. With Krateros and Parmenion as his props, Koinos and Amyntas son of Andromenes as his second row, Philotas and Kleitos as flankers ... etc. etc. (that is, until the new squad was announced in 330BC, with yet another squad shuffle in 328BC, after Kleitos was dropped following a post-match drunken incident involving a spear and the hard shoulder of the Samarkand By-pass ...)

ATB

*whispering*...for us who are stuck with American football as the national sport and soccer for the kidlets... I can only assume that you are talking about Rugby?

athenas owl wrote:*whispering*...for us who are stuck with American football as the national sport and soccer for the kidlets... I can only assume that you are talking about Rugby?

Got it in one! It's a simple equation:

(1 x English) + (1 x Australian) = some mention of rugby or cricket (usually with some smart remark about how rubbish England are at both, and how great the Australians are).

As I have absolutely no interest in cricket, I'm happy to do the rugby one ...

ATB

Well, having zoomed in on this 2 foot statuette, it appears that it is the buttocks and the hips that are the issue, not the thighs...and I would also imagine that Lysippos did more than one statue of Alexander as the famous Roman copy is supposed to be Alexander in his old age of 30's something whereas this one looks as though he is about 16 or 18...I noticed some other traits that were much more interesting than his hips...the center above his waist really made me wonder so I zoomed in to see what the heck is that? but for only two feet tall, it is not a bad statue as statues go...just a very young looking Alexander...but go figure, working with the material to make the statue was probably a pain...

jan wrote:Well, having zoomed in on this 2 foot statuette, it appears that it is the buttocks and the hips that are the issue, not the thighs...and I would also imagine that Lysippos did more than one statue of Alexander as the famous Roman copy is supposed to be Alexander in his old age of 30's something whereas this one looks as though he is about 16 or 18...I noticed some other traits that were much more interesting than his hips...the center above his waist really made me wonder so I zoomed in to see what the heck is that? but for only two feet tall, it is not a bad statue as statues go...just a very young looking Alexander...but go figure, working with the material to make the statue was probably a pain...

Two feet is actually quite big, Jan. I don't think it can have been that much of a pain - considering some of the detailed statuettes made during the Hellenistic period that were much, much smaller - a matter of inches high. Then think of the carnelian pendant that shows Alexander's and Olympias' faces, and the tiny portraits of Philip et al that came out of Vergina. Considering what they were able to do in such miniature pieces, creating a 2-foot bronze should have been a doddle.

ATB

Not to stir the pot or anything, but personally, I don't find his thighs to be that shockingly huge. As it was mentioned and alluded to before, Alexander would probably have built up his thighs a number of different ways: riding horse, marching/drilling, physical exercises etc. That being said, I would expect his thighs to be this 'big'. On a side note, my thighs are pretty muscular and fairly comparable to the size of Alexander's in the bronze, relatively speaking. They are larger than normal (occasionally making it difficult to find pants that don't hug my thighs) but I wouldn't describe them as anything out of the ordinary.