pothos.org

A bit OT, but not too much - I came across this on a website:

"Alexander the Great's father, Philip II of Macedon, once threatened the
Spartans by saying, "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I
bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and
raze your city," to which the Laconians replied with the appropriately laconic
message, "If," which prompted him to drop the matter."

No sources were given - the website was explaining the meaning of the word 'laconic' - but I was interested in the quotations attributed to Philip and the Spartans. Does anyone know where they come from?
Thanks,
Fiona

Fiona wrote:A bit OT, but not too much - I came across this on a website:

"Alexander the Great's father, Philip II of Macedon, once threatened the
Spartans by saying, "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I
bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and
raze your city," to which the Laconians replied with the appropriately laconic
message, "If," which prompted him to drop the matter."

No sources were given - the website was explaining the meaning of the word 'laconic' - but I was interested in the quotations attributed to Philip and the Spartans. Does anyone know where they come from?
Thanks,
Fiona

The quote is from Plutarch, although the version I found isn't as detailed as above.

Plutarchs' Moralia. Volume VI. 511 A. (Concerning Talkativeness.)

And we must be careful to offer to chatterers examples of this terseness, so that they may see how charming and how effective they are. For example: "The Spartans to Philip: Dionysius in Corinth." And again, when Philip wrote to them, "If I invade Laconia, I shall turn you out," they wrote back, "If."

There's also long piece in Volume III on the Sayings of the Spartans, quite a few of which pertain to Philip. Here are a couple of the really "laconic" ones.

Volume III. 233 E.
(28) Philip wrote at the time when he entered their country, asking whether they wished that he should come as a friend or as a foe; and they made answer, "Neither."

Volume III. 235.
(53.) When Philip of Macedon sent some orders to the Spartans by letter, they wrote in reply, "What you wrote about, 'No.'"

Best regards,

Spartan communiqués and rejoinders are often rather priceless. The brevity of many leads one to believe that Brasidas was the Oprah Winfrey of Laconia: he, in comparison, must have seemed never to have shut-up!

My favourite has always been that sent to Sparta after Cyzicus. Athens, post Sicily, is in a parlous position: her navy is vastly reduced; she is cash poor and her allies are in revolt. Worse, though, is the fact that there is a Spartan fleet in the Hellespont. In alliance with Pharnabazus this fleet is in a position to cut Athens’ life line to Black Sea grain. One Spartan victory and we have Aegespotami in 410.

This, however, is not what happens. Athens defeats the Spartans and Pharnabazus’ land forces in the one combined action. The Spartan admiral, Midarus, is killed; the entire Spartan fleet – every single ship – is sunk or captured; many of the Peloponnesians are captive and many are slain. The entire booty of the Spartan fleet – obtained via its actions in Ionia and the Hellespont and likely including Persian silver for payment of sailors – is captured by the Athenian admirals. The defeat is total and catastrophic. In its aftermath Sparta makes overtures for peace. Far from staring at defeat Athens could now make a peace on her terms and regain control of her splintering empire and revenues.

The message, at this moment, from the surviving Spartan commander (with Pharnabazus) to the home government?

Ships gone. Midarus dead. We know not what to do

(Xen. Hell. 1.1.23)

Another was Agesilaos’ disingenuous rejoinder to the charge that Sparta, as the prostatai of the King’s Peace, was “medising”. Agesilaos stated that “rather it is the Mede who is Laconising”.

Fiona wrote:"You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I
bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and
raze your city," to which the Laconians replied with the appropriately laconic
message, "If," which prompted him to drop the matter."

I don’t know what makes the author of the website think that Philip “dropped” the “matter”. Philip marched an army into the Peloponnese and saw to the continued emasculation of Sparta by palming off more of its territory to its several enemies. Philip – like Epaminondas before him and Alexander to follow – did not feel any great desire to become bogged down in the constant bickering, posturing and argy-bargy that passed for Peloponnesian politics. Far better to enable multiple power blocks to play that game for him as well as keep all disunited.

Thanks very much, amyntoros! I can think of quite a few 'chatterers' at my work who would benefit from Plutarch's advice.
I loved the other examples too, they are just brilliant.
Fiona

Thanks, Paralus! Your story of after Cyzicus was terrific, you really set the scene. Priceless is the word. Thanks for explaining more about Philip's approach to them too. I had rather gathered the impression that, by Philip and Alexander's time, the Spartans were something of a spent force, but whether that's right or not, it's clear that they still had the same wit and attitude in their laconic rejoinders!
Fiona

For sure the Spartans were now only a local power but they were still capable of causing trouble; Agis could have undone Alexander's ambition were it not that the memory of Spartan hegemony was more painful than the current Macedonian one! Demetrius Poliorcetes had to put them down, though the rebellion of Thebes prevented him taking the city. Pyrrhus was defeated by the women and old men before going to his appointment with death at Argos. Nor must we forget Kleomenes III whom for Polybios reserves some of his most studied ira the later tyrants, Nabis and such like (yes I have forgotten their names [apart from Machinidas whose incompetence defies belief], were briefly thorns in the side of Rome.

But Sparta was never really anything but a Peloponnesian power when she ventured beyond it was ever a step too far,

This all reminds me of this:

Alexander, son of Phillip, and the Greeks (except the Lacedaemonians) dedicate these spoils, taken from the Persians who dwell in Asia.

Speaking of short and to the point...

agesilaos wrote:Nor must we forget Kleomenes III whom for Polybios reserves some of his most studied ira the later tyrants, Nabis and such like (yes I have forgotten their names [apart from Machinidas whose incompetence defies belief], were briefly thorns in the side of Rome.

But Sparta was never really anything but a Peloponnesian power when she ventured beyond it was ever a step too far,

The key was to leave enough of Sparta so as Peloponnesian concern over its ambitions to regain its Peloponnesian ascendancy had a basis in fact. A totally emasculated Sparta wold likely not concern Achaea, Arcadia, Argos and, for that matter, Messenia. A delicate balancing act but one that was necessary as no matter how ascendant Macedonia, she did not posess the manpower to have to dominate Peloponnesian power politics. Antipater had enough on his hands as we saw with Thrace when Agis began agitating.

You got the main two correct. The other you were thinking of is likely Agis IV: Kleomenes' old man. I'd think that Sparta was rather more breifly a card in Rome's Grecian poker game. Double sided to be sure; but no great threat.

No, Paralus it was not Agis IV, I was thinking of it was one of those too frequent confusions, I thought I remembered a book on Nabis and someone; my guess is that it was Rome! Doh! I'm just not drimking enough these days.

Don't fret it: after the overnight cricket action I'm drinking enough for the both of us.

Caitlin!! Another glasss of red for dad please...

Ah, the cricket; I would claim that it was a natural English reserve that has prevented any mention of it, but really it is a lack of faith in the team being able to pull it off even 500 odd runs to the good! Pessimism is the order of the day for English sport, judging by the the recent run of Aussie results , though it could be coming your way soon !

Bit off topic but what the hey. Test Match Special never seem to stick to the topic either, 'Bearders, when was the last time we mentioned Alexander the Great during an Ashes series?' It must have happened.

Oh dear... The Oval has become the field of Cannae and the Australians the Roman Consular armies.

Those African heavies again! Well, South Africans at any rate.

A pint! A pint!. Make that eight!