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Anyone know if there is a concensus as to the age of the Royal Pages? For years I have been under the impression that they were quite young, say around the age of 16 when first drafted. I've no idea where I got this impression - whether I read it a long time ago and it "stuck", or whether the idea originated in my own head, but recently I read something that suggests the pages were, in fact, older. Will share the source later if there's any interest, but thought I'd ask for thoughts and opinions first. (It could be that I'm the only one who believed they were so young. In which case ... Duh! )

Best regards,

amyntoros wrote:Anyone know if there is a concensus as to the age of the Royal Pages? For years I have been under the impression that they were quite young, say around the age of 16 when first drafted. I've no idea where I got this impression - whether I read it a long time ago and it "stuck", or whether the idea originated in my own head, but recently I read something that suggests the pages were, in fact, older. Will share the source later if there's any interest, but thought I'd ask for thoughts and opinions first. (It could be that I'm the only one who believed they were so young. In which case ... Duh! )

Blimey, that's a bit of a shot from left field, challenging all our unquestioned assumptions!

Well now, without reference to any books, I would say that I was always under the impression - not least from said books - that they were drafted into the "corps" at around 14, and served until they were around 18, at which point they "qualified" for a commission (as it were). I must confess that I never questioned this, so would be interested in any further info.

So I don't think you need the "Duh!", unless we do it in sync.

Still, while I don't recall any source-based evidence that says that they were 14-18, I am also unaware of any that says that they were older.

ATB

Greetings,

I think the assumption of youth comes from Curtius referencing bringing "adult sons" to the court to serve.. which is then up to interpretation being any of the following:
being ofan age to fight (itself open to interpretation), between the ages of 14-18, between 16-18, etc.. Is it Hatzopoulos who states 14-16 or 16-18? I cannot quite recall at the moment.. Hammond assumes 14-18.. does anyone else recall specific sources?

Regards,
Sikander

sikander wrote:I think the assumption of youth comes from Curtius referencing bringing "adult sons" to the court to serve.. Sikander

I'd think that the "seminal" passage is Arrian's (4.13.1-2):

It was a custom introduced by Philip, that the sons of those Macedonians who had enjoyed high office, should, as soon as they reached the age of puberty, be selected to attend the king’s court. These youths were entrusted with the general attendance on the king’s person and the protection of his body while he was asleep. Whenever the king rode out, some of them received the horses from the grooms, and brought them to him, and others assisted him to mount in the Persian fashion. They were also companions of the king in the emulation of the chase.’

Now I don't have the Greek, but, all translations I've read give either "adolescent" or "puberty" in relation to the age. I would think that it is fairly clear that these "youths" entered the court service around thirteen to fourteen. This was a part of Philip's reforms of the state and the bonding of the erstwhile quasi-independant Macedonian nobility (especially "upper") was an aim. Therefore best get them young.

It is often forgotten, given the fixation with Alexander, that this institution evolved within Macedonia. Many see it iin terms of the eastern anabasis when, in fact, that is an aberration. In their original setting the pages, as a whole, may - or may not - have travelled with the king, we do not know. They are a corps, like any other, who may have been called upon in numbers as required. A number may have remained at Pella whilst others attended the king on campaign.

Until "The Great" Macedon had never really had a court "on tour". This presented many a problem - as time would show. It is interesting to conjecture how this institution might have changed had "The Great" lived somewhat longer. Polyglot pages - like his mercenary army (including those Macedonians remaining) - one can be sure.

Paralus wrote:They are a corps, like any other, who may have been called upon in numbers as required. A number may have remained at Pella whilst others attended the king on campaign.

This might well be right. If I recall correctly, without looking at my books, Amyntas son of Andromenes, when he was sent to collect reinforcements from Macedonia (thereby missing the battle of Gaugamela), quite possibly gathered up some 'youths' who were 'serving' Olympias. Again if I recall correctly, Olympias complained about Amyntas' purloining of said youths, which complaint formed part of the accusations against Amyntas following Philotas' trial (which must be recorded in Curtius, methinks).

ATB

Greetings Paralus and Marcus,

Thank you for bringing up Arrian. I was trying to recall the passages that might have led to someone considering an older age for the pages; Curtius stood out for that.

This discussion is another good example of the difficulties that arise when modern values or perceptions are applied to past cultures. At what point does a youth become an adult? What is the measure of adulthood and how should it be interpreted? At what point is a Page no longer a Page?

Regards,
Sikander

sikander wrote:This discussion is another good example of the difficulties that arise when modern values or perceptions are applied to past cultures. At what point does a youth become an adult? What is the measure of adulthood and how should it be interpreted? At what point is a Page no longer a Page?

Questions, questions Sikander. You are correct though: modern perceptions cloud our view. This is unavoidable. Hence my caveat on the Greek. It does seem clear though that a relatively young age is meant (13-14yrs).

One can only look to the evidence available. In the south the Athenian citizen was not allowed to begin to assume his duties - or training for those duties would be better - until his eighteenth year. He then was enrolled in his deme and became an ephebe. Those below this age are clearly considered "boys" (Aristotle, Ath. Const. 42).

The age classes of the Spartan army (and Athenian) clearly indicate that an adult was in his twentieth year. Hence at Mantinea in 418 Sparta calls up all her age classes (20-59) for the do or die struggle with its disaffected allies in Arcadia for a loss here was the end of Sparta as it had existed. Whilst full citizenship is somewhat more complex at Sparta, it is evident that the adult citizen in Athens is he that has completed his time as an ephebe and is then in his twentieth year.

In the absence of direct and firm evidence, I'd assume that the "page" was drafted to court at the age of fourteen or so. It is at this age that he acts as the king's "squire" or "go-for". It is unlikely that he will have been in battle but acted as an attendant for the king's horses (and possibly those of his hetairoi). He took part in the hunt. Probably by sixteen he was on some active service on horseback.

Heckel's argument that he progressed from here to the hypaspistae basilikos or "royal" hypaspists makes extremely good sense. At this stage he is big enough to fight on foot and essentially undergoes his final training as the king's foot guard.

Greetings Paralus,

"Questions, questions Sikander. "

<smiling> Naturally..

"You are correct though: modern perceptions cloud our view. This is unavoidable. Hence my caveat on the Greek. It does seem clear though that a relatively young age is meant (13-14yrs)"

It would seem so (do most people assume 14 years more than the 13? How many tend to favour 16?), yet there are those who argue for an older age. This is why I am interested to find the source they would most likely use to support an argument for an older person. For me, part of understanding an argument is to try to discover the source used to establish the perception. Does anyone else have someone other than Curtius?

I tend to agree with your analysis, of course, but I am always open to the possibility that I could be in error.. not that I *expect* to be, but that I *could* be <laughing>. After all, history is the pursuit of what we believe to be true coupled with those surprises that teach us we were wrong!

Regards,
Sikander

sikander wrote:... history is the pursuit of what we believe to be true coupled with those surprises that teach us we were wrong!

I love this comment, Sikander. Is this your bon mot, or did someone else say it? I'd love to use it, but would wish to credit it appropriately.

ATB

marcus wrote:If I recall correctly, without looking at my books, Amyntas son of Andromenes, when he was sent to collect reinforcements from Macedonia (thereby missing the battle of Gaugamela), quite possibly gathered up some 'youths' who were 'serving' Olympias. Again if I recall correctly, Olympias complained about Amyntas' purloining of said youths, which complaint formed part of the accusations against Amyntas following Philotas' trial (which must be recorded in Curtius, methinks).

The episode I was thinking of is in Curtius 7.1.36-38. It isn't quite as obvious that these were pages as I had thought. However, Amyntas in his defence does say that he forced to come to Asia able-bodied young men who were trying to avoid military service by "hiding" under Olympias' protection.

I would suggest that there is certainly a possibility that these were, in fact, youths who were serving Olympias, although I admit that there are many possible interpretations - but, I have to say, knowing Olympias' attitude to Alexander, I can't really see her protecting any young men from call up unless they were actively serving her.

Something to ponder, anyway.

ATB

Thank you all for your informative input. Should we add to these-the ages of the young men and the processes in Athens for political and military training and duty (Arist. AC 42)-what little we can perhaps only surmise of Macedonian youths' military training? And this would have to do with Alexander.
And should we consider, as I think we are attempting to distinguish, or come close to what the ages of the Pages might have been (beginning and ending) in the service of the Macedonian king and his nobles, or generals (as they did serve them as well), the very young age (seven) of Spartan boys taken into their military service?
Perhaps there is, in both of these city-states and in the early life of Alexander in the Macedonian political and military world, information that may help us as they may have had some political and military influence on general Macedonian practices.
A few examples are: Alexander had at age sixteen the duty of regent of Macedon; at age eighteen, he was either sole commander, or in command with other of Philip's generals (whether on foot or on horseback [laughter]) as general at Chaeronea; and as a child he may have put specific military questions to the Persian ambasadors: if so, I think this suggests he was being educated in military and political matters from a very early age. This could have been something unique to Philip and Alexander, but also quite normal for a Macedonian prince. The Macedonian boy-king, Alexander IV, had Pages (Diod. 19.52.4), boys perhaps his own age, who were brought up with him. (It is not known, but is an interesting speculation if prince Alexander had Pages, and if any of these were his young nobles and later generals [as an example, in Alexander's case probably Hephaestion-who I believe was younger than Alexander by some months or a year or so], and/or if they [and Alexander himself?] served Philip as Pages). So I do think a Macedonian Page might have begun his service perhaps at the latest by age 14. Age 14 is what Hammond maintained, and Reames concurred, however she reminds us to be cutious in this, as we do not 'know'-no source gives specific ages for the Pages, and she says they may not have been as rigid as beginning at 14 and ending at 18-that they could have been younger, or older, and I agree.
I think the youths of Macedon actually may have begun their training in the Pages service at a younger age than 14, perhaps by a year or two or even more, and as a rule rather than as an exception. That the exceptions may pertain more to when they began in the service-perhaps as young as 12, or even younger (particularly if they were more closely associated in military practices with Sparta), but I'm not sure a young man would care (i.e. the humiliation) to graduate later than the rest of his same-age entry-mates, so perhaps up to 19 would have been quite acceptable (if we accept a less rigid age spread), but if not, then it seems 18 (or whatever age was 'set') would have been the absolute exit age for all of them.
I do agree that by age 20 (as it is Athenian-source attested), especially in Macedon, the young men would have been ready for the military.
Sincerely, hephalex.
ps. This is my first (and last? laughter) post. I have been reading letters and posts from 1998 (I am way too timid for my own good , as a good, generous and courage-inspiring friend of mine on this forum will attest), and often thanking posters silently through the years. I shall thank you now for your service on this forum.

Greetings Marcus,

As far as I know, I simply wrote what I was thinking based on what I found to be all too true of history all too often.. you may use as you will. Glad to have given you some amusement <smile>

Regards,
Sikander

rar wrote:The Macedonian boy-king, Alexander IV, had Pages (Diod. 19.52.4), boys perhaps his own age, who were brought up with him.

Welcome rar.

Diodorus only mentions that Cassander “took away the pages who, according to custom, were being brought up as companions of the boy”. This might imply they were of a similar age but it is not certain. Philip obviously had a succession of pages and Alexander is attested – by Diodorus – as having a group of somatophylakes (= pages) brought to him in Asia.

This does not rule out an early age though. Perhaps these boys were brought into the court as young boys. The only material relating to age is that of “puberty” or “adolescent”.

Perhaps Diodorus refers to the young prince’s companions rather than pages?

rar wrote:A few examples are: Alexander had at age sixteen the duty of regent of Macedon; at age eighteen, he was either sole commander, or in command with other of Philip's generals (whether on foot or on horseback [laughter]) as general at Chaeronea; and as a child he may have put specific military questions to the Persian ambassadors: if so, I think this suggests he was being educated in military and political matters from a very early age.

I tend to lean to the view that the story of Alexander questioning the Persian ambassadors is a later insertion (like some others) designed to show the later world conqueror as an “ordained prodigy”.

It's an unexpected source which credits the Pages as being older - James Davidson's The Greeks and Greek Love. In one chapter he discusses how age-groups, age-classes and age-grades were defined by the Athenians, and claims that Athenian grades can be reconstructed with a reasonable amount of certainty; grades being 'the particular status a set achieves when it reaches a certain age'. This is his chart:

Page 78
A. Under-Eighteen: Boys (paides)
B . Eighteen and Nineteen: Striplings (meirakia or neaniskoi = Striplings-in-the-Gymnasium/Officer Cadets?)
C. Twenty+: Men (andres)
i Twenty to Twenty-Nine: Young Men(neoi)
ii Thirty+: Seniors (presbutai – as in Presybyterian, a church ruled by its seniors)

Everyone's first thoughts about the above may be that Macedonian grading systems (if they existed to any great extent) did not necessarily reflected Athenian practices, but there's this on page 79:

Eventually, by fits and starts, Athenian terms took over, though not necessarily meaning precisely what they had meant in classical Athens. Before that, however, we can just about discern what we might call a 'general' Greek system of non-technical terms - i.e. if you were not a boy you must be a man and vice versa. In conclusion we can say with some certainty that 'Boy' in Athens meant two very different things: either (1) someone still in the technical local Athenian grade of Boys - i.e. under-Eighteen, not a Stripling yet, or (2) non-technical, non-local, general Greek boy - i.e. under Twenty, not a Man yet. So an Athenian Stripling who is by definition someone who is no longer a Boy, who has passed the age-scrutiny and was not sent 'back to Boys', can nevertheless casually be called 'boy', just as we might call someone a boy - 'you boys are all the same' – moments after observing that he used to do something 'when he was a boy. When a historian of Alexander wishes to emphasize that the young Macedonians who formed the king's bodyguard of 'Royal Boys' (Basilikoi Paides), usually referred to as 'the Royal Pages' were not in fact prepubescent children but in their late teens, he says the boys 'were those who had come of age as Striplings', hosoi es helikian emeirakieuonto. In fact Greek writers might use boy, pais, in these two different senses in the same paragraph or even in the same sentence. . .

The reference Davidson gives for the Arrian quote is 4.13.1 which is the text that Marcus posted above, the translation there being 'as soon as they reached the age of puberty. Now I can see why a word would not be translated as 'Stripling' because it wouldn't mean a thing to a modern reader. However, if we accept 'the age of puberty' as a reasonable substitute we generally think of an earlier age group (well, I know I do!) - except that Davidson, in a subchapter entitled 'The Great Puberty Shift' makes a claim for male puberty coming much later (based on evolution, height, diet, etc. and after referring to Athenian images of 'Striplings'). He suggests on page 81 that :-

. . .facial hair would have started to appear roughly around 18.5 not 14.5 years, a 'shaveable' beard around 20.5, not 16.5 years. So to say that a Stripling 'not younger than Eighteen', was unbearded, while a Man, 'not younger than Twenty', would be just getting his beard might not be too far from the truth. The key point perhaps is the two-year period from first signs of fuzz to shaving; age-inspectors were looking for the first signs of puberty at Eighteen, which would result, two years later, in a face with enough growth on it to look beyond doubt like a Man's.

If it seems strange that the Athenians had 'age-inspectors', this stems from the fact, according to Davidson, that birthdays were not celebrated under the Athenian lunar calendar and most people did not know their exact age!

I doubt that the above quotes are enough to properly present Davidson's views about age, and I think that if anyone is interested in pursuing this line of inquiry they should probably read his book for themselves. For myself, I found it tremendously interesting that a scholar of cultural/social mores should present this statement about the age of the Pages. Haven't decided how I feel about it yet, although it would answer some nagging questions I've always had about the Pages, based on my understanding that they were much younger. But I'll leave that for a possible later post.

And rar – welcome, welcome, welcome! I do sincerely hope that your first post will not be your last.

Best regards,

Thank you, Paralus, for your kind welcome , and for your fair reply. I do agree with your observations and source interpretations.
And thank you, Amyntoros, for your lovely welcome , and for your excellent and in-depth reply, that not only incoroprates Davidson's clarifying points-on-age in the various city-states in his excellent and important book, but may point to the actual ages of the Pages at the time of enlistment, in Arrian (4.13.1 paidas hosio es helikian emeirakieuonto). That Arrian does indeed call them meirakion at the time of their enlistment, seems to say they were not enlisted younger than 18-using the points Davidson has made, and you have posted for us. Add to the mix the appearance of proofs-of-age (facial hair, and etc.). But even with this revealing word in credible Arrian, I too am still not firmly resolved about their exact age at enlistment-and indeed at the end of their service. Perhaps because there are many sources that show or suggest for the Pages varying ages, and degrees of proficiency, activities, duties, and even duties in the military, and in battle, which might suggest more time (more than two years-if indeed they were out of the Pages service at age 20) would have been required for them to progress from Curtius' performing the most menial of tasks,' to the point of entering full military service. Although, this too might be a reflection of modern thought, and they may have been more capable at a much younger age, and all-around very quick studies. hephalex