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Does anyone know what play or passage it was from Euripides, exactly, that Alexander was fond of quoting at dinner parties? I know that some of Euripides' plays have survived to present and some have not. I'm guessing that it may have been The Women of Troy? I know that there was also a poet, Pindar, who was saved from the seige of Troy. Anyone aware of what particular works were favorites of Alexander? I think it's interesting because I think it's tantamount to favorite television or movies.

Oops! Did I really write, "saved from the seige of Troy?" I meant saved from the seige of Thebes. Sorry, been a rough day!

Lisa wrote:Does anyone know what play or passage it was from Euripides, exactly, that Alexander was fond of quoting at dinner parties? I know that some of Euripides' plays have survived to present and some have not. I'm guessing that it may have been The Women of Troy? I know that there was also a poet, Pindar, who was saved from the seige of Troy. Anyone aware of what particular works were favorites of Alexander? I think it's interesting because I think it's tantamount to favorite television or movies.

Off the top of my head, no. Unfortunately, my internet access at home is all screwed up at the moment, so I can only log on at school where I don't have my books.

There are certainly a couple of quotes that are specifically mentioned in the sources, although they were for distinct occasions and therefore are not tantamount to being ones he was "fond of" quoting. My understanding has always been that he was fond of quoting Euripides in general, without any specific quotes or plays being singled out (except for the one or two already mentioned).

If I get my blasted internet connection back I'll be able to answer more fully, with my books to hand. If you have a copy of O'Brien's "AtG: The Invisible Enemy", you'll get much more help there, as he uses literature a lot to support his discussions.

ATB

I think, from memory, The Bacchae. If I'd enough energy I'd stay up and check O'Brien's book. I'm too tired.

I made the time yesterday to search through the sources for mention of Euripides and found the following:

When Alexander was met by the Chaldean seers who tried to stop him entering Babylon he quoted from a seemingly unknown play by Euripides - the line is listed only in Greek Fragments from Tragedies. Nicobule via Athenaeus says that in the course of his last dinner Alexander acted from memory a scene from Andromeda. In Plutarch we find Alexander quoting from the Medeia regarding Pausanias, and we are also told he quoted an iambic trimeter from an unknown play of Euripides along with a line from the Bacchae when discussing and challenging Callisthenes.

And that's it, other than more generalized references to Alexander's fondness for Euripides. If anyone knows of other direct quotes that I may have missed please feel free to contribute. By the way, Alexander wasn't the only Macedonian with an understandable fondness and knowledge of the playwright; Cleitus also quotes from Euripides at the banquet at which he was killed, and Antigonus whispered a maxim of Euripides in the ear of Demetrius when discussing his son's marriage to Phila.

Best regards,

Thanks very much for the help! I don't have O'Brien's book, so I'll have to go snag it for myself at Amazon. I think that Medea is the play that has survivied to be popular today, because I thought I'd seen that at the bookstore. Interesting that it comes up in the Pausanius incident, because that really explains the reference. Pausanius complains to Alexander that he'd been horribly abused and King Phillip had failed to get him justice, and Alexander quotes something like, "the bride, and the bridegroom" or something like that. The blurb I read about Media was something like good, loving wife gets scorned by husband and decides to kill him. So, perhaps Alexander was telling Pausanius, in a round about way, look, dude, you are not the only one that has been very wrongly treated by Phillip. Olympias, my mother, has also been badly treated. He may also have been alluding to the fact that Olympias wanted to kill Phillip.

Best,
Lisa

Hi Lisa,

As I've shown in Alexander's Lovers, Alexander was clearly following Euripides' Alcestis in some of his acts of mourning for Hephaistion: shearing of horses' manes, banning of music, ordering mourning throughout the realm and donning mourning robes.

Best wishes,

Andrew

Taphoi wrote:Hi Lisa,

As I've shown in Alexander's Lovers, Alexander was clearly following Euripides' Alcestis in some of his acts of mourning for Hephaistion: shearing of horses' manes, banning of music, ordering mourning throughout the realm and donning mourning robes.

Had forgotten about that one. The quote is on this forum page, although whether Alexander was emulating a passage from Euripides or whether Euripides was referencing a known, perhaps well-established practice remains in question, IMO.

Best regards,

I bestirred myself and took the time to quickly check the book prior to the office this morning – no, not that book, John Maxwell O’Brien’s book – and turned up the Bacchae quote. I’d an inkling that it was in response to some rather misplaced self promotion or hubris – on the part of Callisthenes – and indeed it was. Plutarch, Alexander, 53. 3. 1-4:

Moreover, the other sophists and flatterers in the train of Alexander were annoyed to see Callisthenes eagerly courted by the young men on account of his eloquence, and no less pleasing to the older men on account of his mode of life, which was well-ordered, dignified, and independent, and confirmed the reason given for his sojourn abroad, namely, that he had gone to Alexander from an ardent desire to restore his fellow-citizens to their homes and re-people his native city. And besides being envied on account of his reputation, he also at times by his own conduct furnished material for his detractors, rejecting invitations for the most p379part, and when he did go into company, by his gravity and silence making it appear that he disapproved or disliked what was going on, so that even Alexander said in allusion to him:—

“I hate a wise man even to himself unwise."

t is said, moreover, that once when a large company had been invited to the king's supper, Callisthenes was bidden, when the cup came to him, to speak in praise of the Macedonians, and was so successful on the theme that the guests rose up to applaud him and threw their garlands at him; whereupon Alexander said that, in the language of Euripides, when a man has for his words

"A noble subject, it is easy to speak well;"

The first is from an unknown play of Euripides and the second from Bacchae. Time precluded further investigation but it is to be presumed that given his documented fondness for the works that Alexander, in the“time which he would spend over each cup, talking than in drinking, always holding some long discourse”, would regale his companions with his knowledge of Euripides’ works. So much so in fact that Clietus, full as a bull and just as angry, would quote Euripides back at Alexander!

I’ve found O’Brien’s work – and the theme of Dionysus as a “comparable life” (as with Plutarch) if not something of a “subconscious template” for Alexander with all flawed and competing personality traits and tragic consequences– quite interesting. The notion that it is all about Alexander as an alcoholic is, in my opinion, misplaced.

Paralus wrote:I’ve found O’Brien’s work – and the theme of Dionysus as a “comparable life” (as with Plutarch) if not something of a “subconscious template” for Alexander with all flawed and competing personality traits and tragic consequences– quite interesting. The notion that it is all about Alexander as an alcoholic is, in my opinion, misplaced.

O'Brien's publisher wrote:This carefully balanced and beautifully written biography reveals the role of alcohol in Alexander's life, using Dionysus as a symbol of its destructive effects on his psyche.

(Sorry - couldn't resist )

Best wishes,

Andrew

Taphoi wrote:

O'Brien's publisher wrote:This carefully balanced and beautifully written biography reveals the role of alcohol in Alexander's life, using Dionysus as a symbol of its destructive effects on his psyche.

(Sorry - couldn't resist)

It's been more than twenty-five years since I was in publishing, even so, a publisher's (even a self publisher's) role in life is to do what exactly? To sell books.

That tag posseses a much more catchy hook than my particular take on the theme I'd guess. Most likely a more controversial take on the work than what John Maxwell O'Brien intended.

One would have to ask him though.

Taphoi wrote: As I've shown in Alexander's Lovers, Alexander was clearly following Euripides' Alcestis in some of his acts of mourning for Hephaistion: shearing of horses' manes, banning of music, ordering mourning throughout the realm and donning mourning robes.

Best wishes,

Andrew

G'day Andrew,

sorry I don't have a copy of your book, but why do you say Alexander was clearly following Euripides in his acts of mourning? Wouldn't that imply his mourning was staged?

Is the assumption then, such acts of mourning were not traditional for the Makedones?
Obviously there's a lot more to it in your book., just wondering if you could shed some further light on the significance of Euripides on the Macedonian elite and their mourning traditions.

cheers!

smittysmitty wrote:Why do you say Alexander was clearly following Euripides in his acts of mourning? Wouldn't that imply his mourning was staged? Is the assumption then, such acts of mourning were not traditional for the Makedones?

Hi smittysmitty,

Many of Alexander's extravagant acts of mourning for Hephaistion have long been recognised to have been inspired by Achilles' mourning for Patroclus in the Iliad. Indeed Arrian says something like this at Anabasis 7.14.4. However, some of the acts do not seem to be in the Iliad. Most of these missing acts turn out to be found together in a single verse of one of Euripides' most famous funeral scenes in his Alcestis. Given the other evidence that Alexander was very familiar with Euripides' works and the fact that the playwright had actually lived in Macedon, I think the conclusion is fairly obvious.

I do not think this means that Alexander's mourning was not genuine, but it does mean that it was carefully orchestrated by Alexander. I think this actually underlines how important the matter was to the King, but it also shows that the people who claim that these acts are evidence of Alexander going mad are quite wrong. In fact it would appear that, by recreating the practices at Alcestis' funeral for Hephaistion, Alexander meant to show that Euripides' words of mourning for Alcestis, which he puts into the mouth of Admetus, should be understood to apply to the relationship between Alexander and Hephaistion.

Clearly, these acts cannot have been normal funerary practice. For example, if Alexander had banned music for a year every time a senior commander died, there would almost never have been any music. Nor would Alexander's behaviour have attracted such astonished comments as we find in the ancient sources, had Hephaistion's funeral been unremarkable.

Best wishes,

Andrew

Taphoi wrote:Most of these missing acts turn out to be found together in a single verse of one of Euripides' most famous funeral scenes in his Alcestis. Given the other evidence that Alexander was very familiar with Euripides' works and the fact that the playwright had actually lived in Macedon, I think the conclusion is fairly obvious.

I see - many thanks for your response.


cheers!

Euripedes was an influence for Alexander, among others. We all have some influences. It hasnt anything to do with orchestration. Why does every thing that Alexander did has to do something with orchestration?