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Im just thinking the whole concept of Macedonian Phsyche bred to kill. Or is it basic human instinct to kill.

I question Clietus killing. With such an argument they had would it be normal in todays society just to have a scrap. Punches etc. to try give each other a good kicking. Or would it be normal As Alexander did and the first thing he did was grab a Spear and skewr the guy.

Now was that an instinct bred into the macedonian warrior types or is it fundamentally Human. Is it normal to get drunk etc and lose our minds for seconds and minutes to kill.

I raise this point to defend Alexanders actions in this incidents. Some call it an unforgivable atrocity. But I wonder if he really only did what may come natural in an incident like that?I would guess it was.

I have had scraps when drunk and when on the recieving end would have reached for a sword or spear to save my skin. I would say the huge majority of peopl do things they regret when drunk and im sure Alexander regreted this incident for a period of time but in the thetre of war killing and slaughter Im sure he got over it quickly.

jasonxx wrote: Now was that an instinct bred into the macedonian warrior types or is it fundamentally Human. Is it normal to get drunk etc and lose our minds for seconds and minutes to kill.

It would be interesting if it had been Cleitus that skewered Alexander! I guess we could then come up with the usual, off the cuff comments made about Macedonian's being a 'warrior class', the king was a leader amongst equals, etc.

I kind of feel, it was plain and simple - I'm 'King' and I'll do away with who I like, regardless of whether I've had a drop to drink or not.


cheers!

jasonxx wrote:Im just thinking the whole concept of Macedonian Phsyche bred to kill. Or is it basic human instinct to kill.

I question Clietus killing. With such an argument they had would it be normal in todays society just to have a scrap. Punches etc. to try give each other a good kicking. Or would it be normal As Alexander did and the first thing he did was grab a Spear and skewr the guy.

Now was that an instinct bred into the macedonian warrior types or is it fundamentally Human. Is it normal to get drunk etc and lose our minds for seconds and minutes to kill.

I raise this point to defend Alexanders actions in this incidents. Some call it an unforgivable atrocity. But I wonder if he really only did what may come natural in an incident like that?I would guess it was.

Personally I think it's human instinct. However, I don't think that that should be used as a reason to excuse Alexander. Irrespective of what our "instinct" is, humans are supposed to be humans because we are capable of rationality, and that includes being able to control our instincts. That also does not mean that I believe that every person would instinctively react in that way - however, considering the warrior culture in which the Macedonians were bred, it is more likely that their instincts should have been thus than, say, 21st century Britain - the extent to which our "instincts" are honed is always going to be affected by our cultural, technological, social, economic context.

Not entirely related, but I'm sure you'll understand why I mention it here - yesterday in the UK, a mother and her three daughters were jailed for encouraging two toddlers to fight, and filming the ensuing scrap. When one of the children expressed a desire not to fight, he was called a wimp by the supposedly grown-up women, and forced to continue fighting.

(I make no apology for my snobbishness when I say that, when I saw the four women outside the court on the news, I expressed no surprise whatsoever at their appearance - they looked exactly as I would have expected them to look, considering what they had done. But this is just an aside.)

ATB

Hi jasonxx, I think that since Alexander had learned to kill in his early youth, and that his troops massacred the entire Sacred Band when he was only 16, that one can say that killing came quite naturally and easily. It is probably the most difficult thing to understand in today's society as to why it is that probably all of society in general accepted killing as naturally as we accept driving a car today.

I won't comment on the female thing...women's liberation and freedom is a plus for everyone...keeping women in bondage and as chattel isn't a good thing, and I am for all women worldwide to be treated as equals, especially the world of Islam where it appears they suffer so much from misinterpretation of the Koran.

Testing to see if this will be posted....

marcus wrote:Personally I think it's human instinct. However, I don't think that that should be used as a reason to excuse Alexander. Irrespective of what our "instinct" is, humans are supposed to be humans because we are capable of rationality, and that includes being able to control our instincts.

I am not at all an expert on Alexander the great history, what I do know he might have sold inhabitants of Tyre as slaves and that he ordered the destruction of Persian cities. But the barbaric Persian Horde were not just regular innocent looking enemies, they were a savage dominant massive super power with a much larger domain then any of the Peloponnese states & Macedonia together. So don't blame Alexander for being brutal against the major enemy of the Peloponnese states & Macedonia, remember those days were dominated by war stories of Troy & Dorian heroes. So in ancient Greece if you were a succesful warrior, you were a legendary hero. The story of Alexander the great is a legacy of ancient greek war heroes, what are the accounts of Alexander the great's treatment of prisoners of war & conquered citizens ?

Personally I favour the Roman Republic's style of bringing conquered citizens under protective law & citizenship, much more civilized don't you agree.

Pursos.

You raise a very pertinant point. We forever hear the critics lambasting Alexander for Tyre,Thebes,etc,etc.

But these critics are very very selective and some what picky about Alexanders so called atrocites. I doubt the Athenians thought it was fun and games when Xerxes burned and looted Athens. I doubt the Sparatn helots thought it fun and games to fight as Spartan slaves. And i doubt the Greeks Alexander found with there ears and noses cut off thought it was fun and games.

As you say Alexander was a fighter a war man of his days of war and killing so lets not throw all our stones at Alexander as the big bad bogey man. All wars armies conquerers are bogey men to those been attacked. Is why I still think the Spartan movie 300 is moreon the nail with the idea of Xerxes attacking the monsters etc is a representation of how im sure any defending army would see a foreign invader.

Kenny

jan wrote:his troops massacred the entire Sacred Band when he was only 16, that one can say that killing came quite naturally and easily.

He was 18, but I know I'm being pedantic ...

I won't comment on the female thing...women's liberation and freedom is a plus for everyone...keeping women in bondage and as chattel isn't a good thing, and I am for all women worldwide to be treated as equals, especially the world of Islam where it appears they suffer so much from misinterpretation of the Koran.

With reference to ...? (Or did I just read the other posts so quickly that I missed a point?)

You can probably tell that I'm in a confrontational mood ... please forgive.

ATB

Thank you Jan.

You seem to have your concerns for protective law & citizenship, but understand that the ancient Peloponnese & Macedonians had a culture which deified their most successful warriors. Remember Athena is the Goddess of defensive warfare (disciplined, moral justified & civilized), because of this religion/culture Peloponnese & Macedonia were not conquered by the Persian barbaric hordes.

The ancient Greek had a beautiful culture and it was defended by legendary heroes.

Phalanx Pursos wrote:Thank you Jan.

...the ancient Peloponnese & Macedonians had a culture which deified their most successful warriors. Remember Athena is the Goddess of defensive warfare (disciplined, moral justified & civilized), because of this religion/culture Peloponnese & Macedonia were not conquered by the Persian barbaric hordes.

The ancient Greek had a beautiful culture and it was defended by legendary heroes.

Not sure what it is your trying to establish here, but Macedon was conquered by the Persians. The Peloponnese, as with much of Greece, was heavily connected to the Persian king's purse.

Regarding the deification of Macedonian and Peloponnesian warriors - I take it you refer to 'Heracles'? Were there others?

cheers!

Not sure what it is your trying to establish here, but Macedon was conquered by the Persians. The Peloponnese, as with much of Greece, was heavily connected to the Persian king's purse.

When did the Persians conquer Macedon? And what do you mean by Greece being connected to the Persian king's purse? There were mercenaries in Asia Minor, certainly, but most of the Greeks were independent and free. It's for this reason that they could go out and fight the Persians on so many occasions; to preserve this freedom.


To jasonxx, keep in mind Alexander's temperament when considering his outburst at Cleitus; he was emotionally volatile and intemperate, with both the good and bad manifestations of that disposition manifesting in his lifetime. I don't think toughness was only a domain or specialty of the Greeks; men in most parts of the world have been raised to be aggressive in their cultures. But military prowess and emotional instability are two different things. Also, remember that at the time of Cleitus' murder, there was a heavy atmosphere of paranoia around Alexander and he was becoming more jumpy in his dealings with his own men. You could hardly blame him for this when there were actual plots on his life, but it does not excuse what he did, all the same. I think we need to ask ourselves what we would have done in his position.

Hey Marcus, Yeah, my math is pretty bad. 338 BC is something I always remember well. I felt like we are doing Gigi with Hermion Gingold and her partner, remembering way back when. Thanks for the correction! Yeah, he was sixteen when he took over, so I just read on Crystalinks, too. Philip was away at some other battle, and my memory is not so retentive this morning to even remember which one now. So Alexander assumed power then, and at 18, he was at Charonea. You are so correct! I am sitting here chuckling...Alexander is worth something though. He helped me to find a picture of my mother when she was a child...I had thought I had lost it, and lo and behold, I found it in the JC Fuller book on his generalship! I realized that photo of my mother is far more important to me than any of Alexander, but as I had just recently had had dreams of him in his reality, I decided to take a look at busts to see the resemblances. The cover of the Fuller book is remarkably good according to the dreams, but more importantly, two photos of my mom and her brother as children were stuck in the book. A mystery...how did they get there? I just don't know. Truth is stranger than fiction, but sure enough, one is on a page to do with Philip. So I decided we need a book on Philip to read now. Have a good day, and enjoy! I gotta thank Alexander for coming to me in the middle of the night.

Alita wrote:When did the Persians conquer Macedon? And what do you mean by Greece being connected to the Persian king's purse? There were mercenaries in Asia Minor, certainly, but most of the Greeks were independent and free. It's for this reason that they could go out and fight the Persians on so many occasions; to preserve this freedom.

When on the borders of Macedonia, Darius I sent emissaries to the court of Amyntas I asking for the traditional signs of symbolic submission – earth and water. Amyntas gave these and Macedonia became a vassal state of Persia. (There was a marriage alliance as well, but I can’t recall between whom.) Amyntas’s son, Alexander I, was even pressed into Persian service under Xerxes, along with the Macedonian cavalry.

As for the Greeks being connected to the Persian king’s purse, see the following from Livius.

After the Athenian defeat in the Peloponnesian War, Sparta was the leading power in Greece. Immediately, it started to support the revolt of Cyrus the Younger against the Persian king Artaxerxes II Mnemon, and later, its king Agesilaus invaded Asia. The only result was that the Persians started to support Athens, which returned to its former power in 395. To keep the Greeks divided, the Persians continued to switch sides. They were responsible for the rise of Thebes, supporting general Epaminondas, who was able to overcome the Spartans at Leuctra (371) and Mantinea (362). Although he was killed during the second battle, his inheritance was important enough: Sparta was no longer a great power.

During the fourth century, the Greeks remained politically divided - Persian gold was sufficient to ensure an endless series of wars. Meanwhile, Macedonia gained strength and after 346, it was clearly the strongest power in Europe. The Athenian politician Aeschines (c.390-c.315) tried to make the best of it. In his view, the best way to safeguard Athenian independence was cooperation with Macedonia. However, the Athenians preferred war.

Best regards,

jan wrote: I felt like we are doing Gigi with Hermion Gingold and her partner, remembering way back when.

OKaaaayyyy ...

No problem - sorry to have brought it up in the first place, though.

I am sitting here chuckling...Alexander is worth something though. He helped me to find a picture of my mother when she was a child...I had thought I had lost it, and lo and behold, I found it in the JC Fuller book on his generalship! I realized that photo of my mother is far more important to me than any of Alexander, but as I had just recently had had dreams of him in his reality, I decided to take a look at busts to see the resemblances. The cover of the Fuller book is remarkably good according to the dreams, but more importantly, two photos of my mom and her brother as children were stuck in the book. A mystery...how did they get there? I just don't know. Truth is stranger than fiction, but sure enough, one is on a page to do with Philip. So I decided we need a book on Philip to read now. Have a good day, and enjoy! I gotta thank Alexander for coming to me in the middle of the night.

Glad you found the photo, and I think you have your priorities right. The rest of it, though ... errr ... right ...

ATB

amyntoros wrote:
When on the borders of Macedonia, Darius I sent emissaries to the court of Amyntas I asking for the traditional signs of symbolic submission – earth and water. Amyntas gave these and Macedonia became a vassal state of Persia. (There was a marriage alliance as well, but I can’t recall between whom.) Amyntas’s son, Alexander I, was even pressed into Persian service under Xerxes, along with the Macedonian cavalry.

The daughter of Amyntas, Gyaea,Glyaea..something like that..sister of Alexander I married Bubares, son of Megabazus, the Satrap of Daskylion (Dascylium..Hellespontine Phrygia). They had a son names Amyntas...don't know what happened to him.

Hi Marcus, Thanks for understanding. This time, a night time image led me to the discovery of a new book. Conn Iggulden has written a book called Genghis, Birth of an Empire. Thought you might like to know that I discovered that one this morning at Border's. Again, mental thought transference might be working as I had visions of Genghis early this morning...another Englishman at work .