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Greetings All,
I would like to propose a poll. To what extent did Alexander believe in his status as a god.

1. Wholeheartedly, i.e...I am a god.
2. Descended from the gods and therefore, a full and true demigod that is related to and favored by the gods.
3. Descended from demigods and therefore, should be worshipped as a demigod due to divine lineage, i.e...My ancestors were divine, therefore, I am worthy of the same reverence. I may be favored by the gods.
4. Fully aware that bloodlines might be fake. It is possible that I am descended from demigods. I must prove my status or carefully protect and nuture the divine image.
5. I am worthy of divine status due to my accomplishments and royal status.
6. This whole godhead thing is a great scam, and I'll ride it out for as much as I can get from it, i.e...Get Real, I Bleed!

I guess the shortened version would be:
1. I'm a god.
2. I'm a demigod.
3. Get real, I bleed.

As a counter poll, to what extent did his men, or even his subjects believe?

I tried to combine two responses but the computer would only allow one. I actually feel it is a combination of believing in having been born into a family of demigods who could trace their lineage, and also of accomplishment and proofs that verified the favor of the gods.

But what the heck! there was a short story about a knight who had believed in some talisman which gave him the courage to do his duties overcoming his fears, and his belief in the talisman made it all possible!

So I have always suspected it is faith in his heritage as well as the oracle's promises that gave Alexander the same kind of belief in his future successes. When an oracle has acknowledged your credibility as a God and a son of a God, then why not accept that same oracle's promise of success if all you do is have to obey his orders. By the way, the orders probably related to his daily sacrifices which he had to do without fail. So he was assured success, and certainly, the proof of the pudding is that he was successful.

jan wrote: I tried to combine two responses but the computer would only allow one. I actually feel it is a combination of believing in having been born into a family of demigods who could trace their lineage, and also of accomplishment and proofs that verified the favor of the gods.

Hello Jan,
Yes, I agree, but can't figure out how to edit it? Oh well, maybe we'll get a pretty decent consensus as it is. So far, I'm sort of surprised by the amt of no. 5's. The poll is kind of flawed to begin with in that, near as I can tell, Alexander's viewpoint about what he was and how he came to be what he was changed over the course of his life.

I can't vote because the option I would choose is not there.

That is -- he was uncertain. He had been taught mysticism and the idea that he was divine on the one hand, and logic and empiricism on the other (with Aristotle) -- a course of study that made atheists out of quite a few men. He yearned for it to be true, hoped it was, feared it wasn't, was crushed at evidence against... but above all -- set out to prove that it was true, that he was indeed the son of Zeus. That's what I think.

Warmly,
Karen

I can't vote because the option I would choose is not there.

That is -- he was uncertain. He had been taught mysticism and the idea that he was divine on the one hand, and logic and empiricism on the other (with Aristotle) -- a course of study that made atheists out of some. He yearned for it to be true, hoped it was, feared it wasn't, was crushed at evidence against... but above all -- set out to prove that it was true, that he was indeed the son of Zeus. At least that's what I think.

Great idea for a poll, by the way. We're really doing the burning questions.

Arrgh, I did a double post! Sorry.

Warmly,
Karen

jan wrote: When an oracle has acknowledged your credibility as a God and a son of a God, then why not accept that same oracle's promise of success if all you do is have to obey his orders. By the way, the orders probably related to his daily sacrifices which he had to do without fail. So he was assured success, and certainly, the proof of the pudding is that he was successful.

Hi Jan,

Giving a daily offering to the gods was Alexander's job and it was done to ask for blessings and success for the Macedonians. Alexander would have been doing this from the moment the throne was his, long before his visit to Siwah.

Also, I'm quite curious as to why people think that the oracle gave Alexander detailed instructions or orders, as in, "I will now tell you what you must do." (You're certainly not the only one to assume this is how it went.) The Greeks had been visiting the oracle at Siwah long before Alexander's visit - and of course the Egyptians had consulted it for even longer. Every piece of evidence I have found indicates that the oracle was a "Yes" "No" system given in nods and signs. Therefore, whatever Alexander learned at Siwah would have depended entirely on the questions that he asked.

Best regards,

Amyntoros

Indeed Amyntoros and, given to having its words misinterpreted, misheard or plain interpolated. Most especially in this case it might seem.

amyntoros wrote:Every piece of evidence I have found indicates that the oracle was a "Yes" "No" system given in nods and signs. Therefore, whatever Alexander learned at Siwah would have depended entirely on the questions that he asked.

Slightly flippantly ...

I can well imagine that, had Alexander asked "should I start asking my people to honour me as a god?" and the oracle had said "no", he would have done so anyway if he believed it was in his best interests. As the sources all seem to indicate that no-one but Alexander knew what he had asked and what the oracle had replied, he could have decided on his own course of action.

ATB

I'm new to the site but have to say all I've read over the last month has been terrific - great food for thought.

The poll is a good one! I think ticking one box is tough though, it probably does merit of blend of answers. I think ATG walked with the gods in a way that we can no longer imagine, the Gods being visceral as well as divine. But proving his worth was paramount and it allowed him draw on both his deep spiritualism and his Resaon.

Vanessa

karen wrote:I can't vote because the option I would choose is not there.

That is -- he was uncertain. ...
Karen

I considered some variation on this option, but to me, the whole essence of Alexander rested on his belief in himself, his course of action, and his purpose. To cut it short, I intentionally steered my poll away from the notion that Alexander was uncertain. His actions scream at us all from across the ages of a man that had no doubt. Certainly, for the calibur of men that followed him to have followed him so unwaveringly, his image as unwavering must have been as manifest as concrete. I guess it's a flaw that I intentionally built into the poll (my own personal bias...sorry).

Overall, I do find your reply compelling and succint.

Hello,

I recently heard the idea that Alexander "may" in some way have thought the following- that divine status could be attained via the accomplishment of some "amazing" feats- similar to Hercules.

Also on the other hand there was the detail when he says. referring to one of his wounds, look it isn't "ichor"- or something to that effect.

Anyway, Nicator- all in all an excellent poll.

Best,
Dean

Hi Nicator et al:

Consider this -- if Alexander had been certain that he was the son of Zeus... would we be doing a poll?

I think probably not -- because if he'd stood completely firm on the idea, the sources wouldn't contain contradictory evidence, e.g. that he interpreted one or more events at Siwah as confirmation, vs. the "this is blood, not ichor" quote... the sort of contradictory evidence that makes our polls possible (and fun).

I think a person can be supremely competent at and confident in what he does, and have precise ambitions and plans, while simultaneously having doubts about his nature. Probably Alexander kept himself too busy to be consumed by thoughts about it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't in the back of his mind, spurring him on to great deeds so as to prove it.

Of course it is but another theory...

Warmly,
Karen

Good points, well made - a slight tangent here, do you think that's why the constancy of Hephaistion's confidence (in both senses of the word) was so essential? The one who knew him as Alexander and as King, the real and the divine, but was as unswerving as ATG's ambition?

Vanessa

amyntoros wrote:

The Greeks had been visiting the oracle at Siwah long before Alexander's visit - and of course the Egyptians had consulted it for even longer.
Best regards,

Amyntoros

Greetings Amyntoros,
I don't know what kind of scholarly research has been conducted on the Siwa shrine, but an interesting book I read a couple of years ago indicated that the Siwa oracle was founded by two black doves that carried an olive branch from the Dodona oracle in Alexander's backyard. In my opinion, too little is made out this connection. If there be any veracity to the account, (not about the black doves, but that the Dodona Greeks hijacked the Siwa shrine and manufactured a connection once it became noteworthy) then Olympias would have been well acquainted with the legend of Siwa and its connection to her primary place of religious worship. If anything, it gives us a rare glimpse into the religious background at the Pella court and the ties between mother and son. I.e...we can possibly infer that Olympias informed Alexander at a very young age about the Siwa shrine.

It does, however, seem likely to me that Siwa was already in existance before the Greek connection, and therefore, the Egyptians were already using it. My 'feeling' for this stems from the strangeness of the ritual involving the 80 priests carrying around the boat. It seems very ancient Egyptian to me. That is, already ancient from Alexander's viewpoint. Like 1800 b.c.e. ancient (just throwing a number out there).

The oracle at Siwa doesn't have the great antiquity that you might think. Though inhabited since Neolithic times, the Oasis only came under direct control of the Egyptians during the 26th Dynasty (664-525 BCE). It's unclear exactly when the worship of Amun was introduced to the area, though it likely arrived with an influx of merchants and traders during the reign of Ramesses III in the mid-19th Dynasty (1296-1186 BCE). The region's two surviving temples can be traced to Ahmose II (d. 526 BCE) and Nectanebo II (d. 343 BCE).

To the Greeks of Cyrene, who popularized the oracle sometime after 630 BCE, Amun became Zeus Ammon (from ammos, or 'sandy'), and its veracity spread to the balance of the Greek world*.




*taken primarily from The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt (Ian Shaw, Editor). Oxford University Press, 2000.