pothos.org

Agesilaos' translation of the first part of the Metz Epitome is now online at

http://websfor.org/alexander/special/metz.asp ( or go to http://www.alexander-sources.org)

Thanks, Karl, for all your excellent work on this and other translations.

I've updated the site considerably to add in the Epitome, Romance and other sources, so the appearance is changed. If you have a 'cached' version you will need to clear it by pressing 'CTRL',F5 several times. Please point out errors, and I'll gradually get round to them.

I haven't finished the site updating but I want to get the Metz Epitome published ASAP.

Susan

G'day Susan.

It's a great site and wonderful reference tool.

Love Agesilaos' (Karl's) article on Polybius and the numbers at Issus - which I read some months back. Pity we have no such information with respect to Gaugamela.

It is quite preposterous to countenance some of the figures put on the Persian numbers at Issus, let alone Gaugamela.

My Teubner is, like the truth, out there somewhere and hopefully on its way back.

On Issos I am writing a major re-appraisal at this very moment along with more on Kleitarchos and the Polytimetos incident; these latter two because organising the mass of detail about Issos and remaining readable is wearing and they afford some light relief! I must be mad - Nurse!

chairete

Love the translation! (I wonder if thereGÇÖs any way to reintroduce GÇ£fundamentGÇ¥ into everyday conversation?!) For the record, IGÇÖve never paid too much attention to the figures given for battle stats, etc. GÇô not an area of major interest for me GÇô however, I have come to realize that the ubiquitous figure of 30,000 ought to be considered as meaning only GÇ£a great number.GÇ¥ IGÇÖve been sitting in on lecture course on the medieval church and that figure frequently occurs in those sources as well.

I do think it worthwhile examining some of the details in the Metz Epitome, however, for IGÇÖm disinclined to immediately dismiss every part that varies from the other histories. First up is the method of execution for Bessus:

Metz Epitome [14] GÇ£Then he led the column across Sogdian territory. From there, in turn, he entered Bactria and ordered BessusGÇÖ arrest and he executed him by impalement through the fundament, after the Persian manner.GÇ¥

I was struck by these differing methods of execution GÇô impalement in the ME and crucifixion in Curtius (7.5.40) - until I did a little online research. According to Herodotus (3.159), impalement was a form of Persian execution, with Darius I impaling 3,000 important men at Babylon. The Behistun Inscription purportedly reinforces Herodotus, but the two English translations I found online use the word crucifixion, or GÇ£put on a cross.GÇ¥ However, a footnote to a translation of Arabian Nights refers to the Persian word GÇ£salbGÇ¥ as meaning impalement, but explains that elsewhere in the story the same word means crucifixion. (Footnote 429 at Arabian Nights: Volume 16 Footnotes should anyone have a desire to read a graphic description of death by impalement!) So . . . the two versions of the death of Bessus are not necessarily as contradictory as I first thought.

What is quite delightfully different in the Metz Epitome is AlexanderGÇÖs treatment of SpitamenesGÇÖ wife who reportedly killed him and brought his head to Alexander. Arrian (4.17.7) doesnGÇÖt even mention her, saying that it was the Massagetae who sent SpitamenesGÇÖ head to Alexander. The ME (23) has Alexander taking the woman by the hand and thanking her for killing Spitamenes, adding that, GÇ£He held none in such honour as her nor would any inspire more desire in him by reason of their beauty.GÇ¥ Curtius (8.3.14-15) on the other hand, tells of an Alexander repelled by the enormity of the crime, and that GÇ£the savagery of the deed carried more weight with him than gratitude for the favor,GÇ¥ thus he threw her out of the camp. Considering the stories that are told about Macedonian women I find this a little hard to swallow; and my confidence in the story wavers further after Curtius claims GÇ£He did not want her tainting the character and civilized temperament of the Greeks with this example of lawlessness.GÇ¥ Now, when one examines the later actions of those Macedonians who followed Alexander, itGÇÖs nigh on impossible to believe that their GÇ£civilizedGÇ¥ sensibilities would be so offended by this one act. Personally, I think it is Curtius who was offended GÇô and not by the murder per se, but that it was done by a woman!

(Aside: I'm reminded, Paralus, that as soon as I can get around it to it I shall enjoy challenging you on your attitude towards Olympias! Atrax robustus indeed! A black widow spider is neither indiscriminate nor poisonous enough for you?)

It would be no surprise to me if ArrianGÇÖs version of the events is the one most favored by members, however, he did occasionally omit details if he thought they were either unnecessary or reflected badly on Alexander (e.g. the trial and deaths of Philotas and Parmenion). Between CurtiusGÇÖ version and that in the ME, IGÇÖm sure Curtius will be preferred, although, as I explained, itGÇÖs certainly not above challenging. Still, any tales that mention GÇ£desireGÇ¥ on the part of Alexander are usually dismissed as fiction, so I doubt that many (if any) Pothosians would have truck with the ME version. I wonGÇÖt say that I have a preference: my real reason for examining this event in detail is to show that sometimes GÇ£acceptedGÇ¥ versions of stories are as equally debatable as those in the ME.

There may indeed be some GÇ£truthsGÇ¥ to be found in the Metz Epitome and I look forward to the rest of the translation.

Best regards,

I think that establishing Alexander's itinerary would be very interesting. I haven't yet had a chance to compare the itinerary with the other established routes - it might throw up some other items of interest.

I was intrigued by the tale that the Macedonians chased the Scythians to the column of Father Liber. Father Liber is apparently another name for Dionysos.

Also, the report that as well as Alexander marrying Roxane, his companions married other girls in the dancing party. I can only assume that they'd all had a great deal to drink when he suggested it.

I can't find anywhere what early source the Metz epitome is meant to derive from - does anyone else know ?


Susan

G'day Amyntoros.

"Impalement via the fundament" makes eminent sense. This was the usual Persian method of dealing with traitors. Were Alexander to make a point, this would be the way to go.

Paralus wrote: "Impalement via the fundament" makes eminent sense. This was the usual Persian method of dealing with traitors. Were Alexander to make a point, this would be the way to go.

Ouch!

Reminds me of Doctor Johnson:

"The woman had a bottom of good sense."
The word 'bottom' thus introduced, was so ludicrous, ... that most of us could not forbear tittering ...
"Where's the merriment? ... I say that woman was fundamentally sensible."
Boswell's Life, vol. 4, 20 April 1781

ATB

Very good Marcus, very good.

Although highly civilised and advanced in many ways , Persian proctology did not neccessarily count amongst those many ways.

Actually, were Smitty on line, he could attest to that classic old Aussie line used to describe one who is thouroughly enamoured of oneself as having "disappeared up his own fundamental orifice."

Paralus wrote: Actually, were Smitty on line, he could attest to that classic old Aussie line used to describe one who is thouroughly enamoured of oneself as having "disappeared up his own fundamental orifice."

Yes, we use the same here in Blighty, although our wording is slightly less euphemistic ...

Of course, dispatching one's enemies using that method was notably practised in 1327, when Edward II was supposedly dealt with using a red-hot poker, at Berkeley Castle. In that instance the method was chosen in order to leave no external evidence of murder (although, as some scholars have pointed out, they had to smother him with a pillow to keep him quiet; so why didn't they just smother him in the first place?).

At the risk of lowering the tone of this thread irretrievably, this now reminds me of one of my favourite limericks:

From the crypt of the church of St Giles,
Came a scream that resounded for miles.
Said the Dean, "Goodness gracious!
Has Father Ignatius
Forgotten the Bishop has piles?"

I'll get my coat ...

Since the contents of Diodoros XVII also mentions the weddings at the same time as Alexander's and Rhoxane's it would seem that Kleitarchos was the main source for the Epitome only the epitomator kept closer to the original than Curtius who 'improved' upon him.

The Greeks also get confusing over executions since the words for hanging and crucifixtionand impalement can be the same, most early translations prefering 'hanging' since that was the way we did things and it has no religious overtones - there are still people who believe Jesus was the only victim of crucifixion - and impaling is an oriental abomination much favoured by the Ottoman.

Hopefuly I will be back on-line soon chez moi and I can have a good look at the itinerary, the source tradition there looks interesting.

Chairete

susan wrote:I was intrigued by the tale that the Macedonians chased the Scythians to the column of Father Liber. Father Liber is apparently another name for Dionysos.

Pliny has some information on the columns - I canGÇÖt give the exact reference (I donGÇÖt have the books to hand) but itGÇÖs part of Book VI 46-49.

". . . and the Bactri, whose chief city is Zariaspe, which afterwards received the name of Bactra, from the river there. This last nation lies at the back of Mount Paropanisus, over against the sources of the river Indus, and is bounded by the river Ochus. Beyond it are the Sogdiani, the town of Panda, and, at the very extremity of their territory, Alexandria,* founded by Alexander the Great. At this spot are the altars which were raised by Heracles and Father Liber, as also by Cyrus, Semiramis, and Alexander; for the expeditions of all these conquerors stopped short at this region, bounded as it is by the river Jaxartes, by the Scythians known as the Silis, and by Alexander and his officers supposed to have been the Tanais. This river was crossed by Demodamus, a general of kings Seleucus and Antiochus, and whose account more particularly we have here followed. He also consecrated certain altars here to Apollo Didymaeus.
* It was built on the Jaxartes, to mark the furthest point reached by Alexander in his Scythian expedition. It has been suggested that the modern Kokend may possibly occupy its site.

Also, the report that as well as Alexander marrying Roxane, his companions married other girls in the dancing party. I can only assume that they'd all had a great deal to drink when he suggested it.

However, it seems quite sensible and very typical of Alexander, donGÇÖt you think? AlexanderGÇÖs marriage to Roxane secured the loyalty of her father, but as this was essentially a tribal culture I question whether every other leader would have easily accepted OxyartesGÇÖ GÇ£ruleGÇ¥ once Alexander left for India. By securing marriages between his men and other noblewomen (whom we are told were also at the dinner where Alexander first saw Roxane), Alexander would gain further hostages, thus ensuring their familiesGÇÖ acquiescence to both his rule and OxyartesGÇÖ appointment as satrap. Given the two hard years the army had spent trying to get the region under control, multiple marriages would seem quite logical at this point.

Best regards,