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Alexander and Iraq, learning from history?

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:21 am
by thomaswp
Looking at yesterday's The Independent newspaper in the UK it is full of the misery in Iraq.
DON'T LOOK AWAY. And don't believe all that our leaders tell us about democracy. Three years after the toppling of Saddam, this is the bloody mess Iraq has become
And the BBC is about to do a piece on the destruction of Babylon - the heli-pad build on the top of ruins and it being used as a military base.

Which leads to my question. Whatever the motive for "going in" to Iraq (let's not go there, please) what could the modern forces have learned from Alexander's approach to conquest?

Approach to conquest

Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:40 am
by marcus
The famous speech by Col Tim Collins was, for me, the closest the modern allied forces came to taking the right approach. It is ironic that, since the widespread reporting and approbation of the speech, we have heard absolutely nothing about any attempts, by any members of the coalition, to live up to the ideals set out by Collins.

Some places initially gave the coalition forces the sort of welcome that Alexander appears to have enjoyed at Babylon. The British appeared to be particularly welcomed, and seemed to be getting along well with the 'liberated' Iraqis ... and now all that seems to have disappeared, thanks to Abu Graib, etc (somewhat reminiscent of the punishment of Bessus and the punishments in 325/4?).

Perhaps Arrian is not the required reading at Sandhurst and West Point that I was always let to believe it was?

ATB

Marcus

Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:34 am
by cynisca
Greetings,
not having television or being a regular newspaper reader, I tend to be unaware of news on occasions...
I wept when I saw the destruction caused in Babylon now you write there is a helipad built on ruins....why :( ?
I can't help but think that this is some sort of punishment meted out to Saddam's followers or maybe there is a more subtle message shown by trampling on the ruins of Babylon.
Think of Thebes for instance.......
regards
Cynisca

I can think of 20 things they should have learned

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:12 pm
by karen
1. Be honest about your reason for war and make sure that it is agreed with by those whose support you need. Don't come up with lies to convince either the soldiers or the "home front" to support the idea, because you'll run into problems when the truth comes out.

2. Know the enemy. Do thorough reconnaissance through good humint (human intelligence -- on the ground, personal, spying). Find out for sure whether they really will greet you with hearts and flowers, or will actually resent your occupation and mount an insurgency.

3. Before invading, give the enemy the option of surrendering and acceding to your demands. This could translate into massive savings in lives and resources.

4. Have a plausible, thorough, clear and well-defined plan for victory, and make sure everybody understands it.

5. Require the largest financial sacrifices from your wealthiest citizens, rather than letting them off.

6. Make sure you have enough soldiers.

7. Make sure they are adequately equipped.

8. When going to your expert subordinates for input, believe them. Don't fire the ones who are honest and surround yourself with toadies, or else you'll stop getting good input and you'll make more mistakes.

9. Keep your allies fighting alongside you through doing #1 above with respect to them, and making sure their own risk-benefit ratio is agreeable to them.

10. Hire the defeated nation's army and administrative apparatus and co-opt them to your purposes, rather than dismissing them so that they are left armed, angry, unpaid and susceptible to offers to sell their skills to your enemies.

11. Don't leave dangerous weapons lying around unguarded for your enemies to steal and use against you.

12. Honour your dead -- go to their funerals -- and make sure your disabled will be adequately paid and cared for.

13. Don't give just lip service to the idea of winning hearts and minds. Make decisions based on the underlying goal of making the occupied people glad you've taken over.

14. Make sure that the occupied country quickly becomes a revenue source rather than a revenue drain, by efficiently building or rebuilding infrastructure that allows the common people to get on with their lives and their work. Ruthlessly punish and get rid of any fraud artists.

15. Honour rather than despise the occupied people's religion and cultural heritage.

16. Don't allow your underlings to perform any atrocities or abuses -- torture, rape, theft, revenge-massacres against civilians, etc. -- that aren't strictly necessary for your overall purpose.

17. Have a plausible, thorough, clear and well-defined exit strategy. Hire competent and honest people to run the place so that you can go on with a strong and happy army to your next conquest.

18. Make sure you are in a strong enough position to crush insurgencies, nip civil wars in the bud and ensure law and order.

19. Make sure through your actions that you yourself gain a reputation as a competent, effective, intelligent, courageous leader, willing to make sacrifices yourself, generous to those who show loyalty, and thus assured of the allegiance of underlings. This will ensure that enemies respect you, and even allow you to make some enemies into friends.

and finally -- though due to his competence this didn't come up much for Alexander --

20. If all or some of the above fail -- cut your losses. If your army is taking many casualties in exchange for no clear gains, turn back and get the hell out.

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:37 am
by cynisca
Well said Karen,
but how many modern leaders are as straightforward and upfront, in more ways than one, as Alexander was.....
It's all very well sending out the fighting men with rousing speeches....and Col Tim Collins's has an echo of Alexander about it..
You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest -- for your deeds will follow you down through history.
But the real leaders who make the decisions sit in comfort and safety....unlike Alexander....and to be honest, sometimes, I don't think they give a damn.
regards
Cynisca

Link for Collins?

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:10 pm
by karen
Anyone got a link for this speech by Col Tim Collins? I had never heard of it and want to read it.

Best,
Karen

Re: Link for Collins?

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:32 pm
by marcus
karen wrote:Anyone got a link for this speech by Col Tim Collins? I had never heard of it and want to read it.
It was fantastic - just a shame that the ideals promoted haven't really been lived up to by everyone out there!

Tim Collins's speech

ATB

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:25 am
by amyntoros
Serendipitously, a link to this news article by Steven Pressfield arrived in my mailbox this afternoon. He has a new Alexander book coming out, The Afghan Campaign: A novel. Hmm, not sure why the title needs to be qualified in such a manner. Either Pressfield or his publishers must think the book could be mistaken for a historical tome if they didnGÇÖt clearly indicate that it was a novel. Perhaps they anticipated crowds of enraged classicists demonstrating in the bookstores and demanding refunds? Curiouser and curiouser . . .

Anyway, if youGÇÖre wondering why IGÇÖm mentioning the book on this thread (and IGÇÖm sure you are) itGÇÖs because PressfieldGÇÖs article is entitled Tribalism is the real enemy in Iraq and includes his take on lessons we could learn from Alexander. Here, without commentary, are the relevant excerpts:

:arrow: GÇ£For two years I've been researching a book about Alexander the Great's counterguerrilla campaign in Afghanistan, 330-327 B.C. What has struck me most powerfully is that that war is a dead ringer for the ones we're fighting today -- even though Alexander was pre-Christian and his enemies were pre-Islamic.

In other words, the clash of East and West is at bottom not about religion. It's about two different ways of being in the world. Those ways haven't changed in 2,300 years. They are polar antagonists, incompatible and irreconcilable.

:arrow: The tribe needs a boss. Alexander understood this. Unlike the United States, the Macedonians knew how to conquer a country. When Alexander took Babylon in 333 B.C., he let the people know he was the man. They accepted this. They welcomed it. Life could go on.

:arrow: What the warrior craves before all else is respect. Respect from his own people, and, even more, from his enemies. When we of the West understand this, as Alexander did, we'll have taken the first step toward solving the unsolvable.

:arrow: It took Alexander three years, but he finally got a handle on the tribal mind. (Perhaps because so many of his own Macedonians were basically tribal.) Alexander produced peace by marrying the daughter of his most powerful enemy, the princess Roxane. The tribe understands such an act. This is respect. This is honor.

:arrow: Alexander made the tribesmen his equals. He acknowledged their warrior honor. When he and his army marched out to their next conquest, Alexander took the bravest of his former enemies with him as his companions. They rode at his side in stations of honor; they dined at his shoulder in the royal pavilion. (Of course he also beat the living hell out of the Afghans for three years prior, and when he took off, he left a fifth of his army to garrison the place.)

:arrow: Perhaps in the end, our leaders, like Alexander, will figure some way to bring the tribal foe around. More likely in my opinion, they'll arrive at the same conclusion as did Lord Roberts, the legendary British general. Lord Roberts fought (and defeated militarily) tribesmen in two bloody wars in Afghanistan in the 19th century. His conclusion: Get out. Roberts' axiom was that the farther away British forces remained from the tribesmen, the more likely the tribesmen were to feel warmly toward them; the closer he got, the more they hated him and the more stubbornly and implacably they fought against him.GÇ¥

The rest of the article is, as you can imagine, highly political - which is why I didnGÇÖt copy the whole thing here. And I realize that most of the last paragraph quoted isnGÇÖt relevant to Alexander, but I couldn't resist including it. :twisted:

Best regards,

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:04 am
by Aspasia
Approximately how many individuals were killed during the campaigns of Alexander?? I get a general feeling that there is an assumption that Alexander achieved his conquests and control through minimal loss of life. Its a very romanticised view of war!!! People were killed, oppressed and sold into slavery. Alexander had the luxury of being able to do this without being held to account. He conquered, controlled and took the resources of the lands for his own. Unfortunately "the Allies" dont have this luxury in Iraq. They want to do what Alexander did but in a subtle way that is acceptable to a "peace loving" world. Conquering other countries is not as acceptable today as it was in Alexanders day.

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:39 am
by amyntoros
Aspasia wrote:Approximately how many individuals were killed during the campaigns of Alexander?? I get a general feeling that there is an assumption that Alexander achieved his conquests and control through minimal loss of life. Its a very romanticised view of war!!!
No, it isn't a general assumption, although there are some who still romanticize Alexander and his campaigns - something which has been happening for over two thousand years! You'll find though that there are many here who feel the same way as yourself, as previous threads can demonstrate.

There are all kinds of people with varying opinions on Pothos. Apparently, according to the results of the latest poll so far, there are some who believe Alexander was a god and an even greater number who think he was an extraterrestrial! (Unless they are simply having a joke on us - the poll does lend itself to that.) Anyway, the greatest percentage voted that Alexander was a simple mortal. I suspect that an equal proportion of Pothosians recognize the reality of war in Alexander's time. :)

Best regards,

Hairy arm-pit scratching oriental primitives

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:59 pm
by karen
Pressfield -
In other words, the clash of East and West is at bottom not about religion. It's about two different ways of being in the world. Those ways haven't changed in 2,300 years. They are polar antagonists, incompatible and irreconcilable. The West is modern and rational; its constituent unit is the nation. The East is ancient and visceral; its constituent unit is the tribe.
What grandiose horse huckey. People are people. The clash of East and West is about the same thing it was in Alexander's time, the same thing as clashes that aren't between East and West are about, the same thing war is always about, at its core -- grabbing the other guy's stuff/keeping the other guy from grabbing yours.

Feh,
Karen

Re: Hairy arm-pit scratching oriental primitives

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:55 pm
by marcus
karen wrote: What grandiose horse huckey. People are people. The clash of East and West is about the same thing it was in Alexander's time, the same thing as clashes that aren't between East and West are about, the same thing war is always about, at its core -- grabbing the other guy's stuff/keeping the other guy from grabbing yours.
Absolutely. Pressfield ought to stick to writing novels, not writing political statements based on the ancient history he only superficially understands.

I loved "Gates of Fire" - it was a terrific book. "Virtues of War" was pathetic, in my opinion - if he really did as much research on Alexander as he professed to have done, then he was reading the wrong books for two years.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. It really irritated me to read all the sycophantic blurbs about "Virtues of War" from other authors and publishers, when it was such a bad book. :cry:

All the best, and taking deep breaths.

Manfredi.

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:35 pm
by dean
Hi Marcus,

I bought "Gates of Fire" and found it to be a pretty good read- in fact may well be worth reading again- thought it was great.

Haven't bought "Virtues of War"- but am aware of all the hype- worthy of Callisthenes himself if you ask me.

Don't think that I will be bothering buying the hardback limited signed copy boxed edition (or something like that) :cry:

Same with Manfredi- who has taken about as much flack as Oliver Stone(who should have stuck to Vietnam) Manfredi in my opinion is not the greatest writer in the world- but "Alexandros" was to me not a terrible attempt(I can hear many of you saying "oh my God" what is he on.. ) at penning a story about Alexander. It takes you through the events of Alexander's life and mentions most of the stuff that happened- it is OK. But Manfredi is another writer who seems to have hit lucky once and now is spitting out boring and uninspiring "historical" novels every other month about Roman legions getting lost in the desert, all with questionable academic criteria :D

Best wishes,
Dean

Re: Manfredi.

Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:39 pm
by marcus
dean wrote: Same with Manfredi- who has taken about as much flack as Oliver Stone(who should have stuck to Vietnam) Manfredi in my opinion is not the greatest writer in the world- but "Alexandros" was to me not a terrible attempt(I can hear many of you saying "oh my God" what is he on.. ) at penning a story about Alexander. It takes you through the events of Alexander's life and mentions most of the stuff that happened- it is OK. But Manfredi is another writer who seems to have hit lucky once and now is spitting out boring and uninspiring "historical" novels every other month about Roman legions getting lost in the desert, all with questionable academic criteria :D
I won't use this as an opportunity to have a pop at Manfredi. I will say, however, and as I have said just about every time I've mentioned him (in the interests of fairness), that it could be the translator's fault as much as Manfredi's own. Suffice it to say that I haven't wasted my time with any other of Manfredi's books.

As an indication of what a translator should be capable of, I heartily recommend the Erast Fandorin books by Boris Akunin. Akunin is Russian, so I read the English translations - and they are absolutely fantastic. I don't know who the translator is off the top of my head, but he deserves as many accolades as Akunin himself has received. (They are detective novels set in fin de siecle Russia - or rather, the hero is a fin de siecle Russian, as the second book actually takes place in Turkey, the third on a cruise ship, and much of the first takes place in London.)

All the best

Re: Manfredi.

Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:49 am
by Paralus
marcus wrote:I won't use this as an opportunity to have a pop at Manfredi.
I will though. What a load of arrant nonsense. One would have thought an "academic" would have known better. I struggled to find a coherent, historically accurate theme behind his "novels".

The basis is that his work is the "rediscovered" anabasis of Ptolmey. If such were true, I would have to say Ptolmy was better advised to continue "anabasing" or leading a phalanx or a cavalry charge; a writer he demonstrably is not.

The entire manuscript seems an excercise in sexual image making: Alexander lusted after - and "had" - each and every beauty that came his way (pardon the pun). His relationship with his companions is something from a "Boys' Own" and the relationship of his life - Hephaestion - is demonstrably not homo-erotic. Popycock. (oops, bad choice).

Manfredi would have us see the conqueror as some Macedonoian Torkan who is relentlessly heterosexual and possessing of some "conqueror's code" by which he judges his behaviour.

Better to watch the privately homosexual Tony Curtis portray a relentlessly heterosexual Myles Falworth.

And, no, I don't believe the immortal line about the "yonder lying" castle of his "fadder" appeared in this film...the Prince Who Was a Thief maybe?