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What do we have in here? Birds of the spring,opening narcissus' blooms,the North Wind of my lands, told me of this place, where people are talking about one of us, a full blooded Hellene, with full Hellenic pedigree from both sides of his family.A mother, from glorious Molossian ancestry, relatives of Achilles and his Myrmidones, the ONLY Hellenes of the Trojan War, as Thukididis attest in his BOOK 1-3.And a father, Phillip the IInd, a Timenid himself, from the ones that conquered the Southern tribes and made Hellenes out of them.Are you people in here talking about one of MY clan?Regards to all.........L.
George Sofoklis Tsapanos
Visalia, Ca."Vlachs, the autochthonous
of the Hellenic peninsula"

Timenid himself, from the ones that conquered the Southern tribes and made Hellenes out of them. Hi Lyngos.Herodotus did infact say that the Dorians who were part of the Makedoni ethos(decendent from Helen) renamed Dorians when they entered the Peloponese.I assume this is what your refering to. I suspect that you will get responses stating that Herodotus's testimony was mythical propaganda passed down from the Macedonian Royal House thus unrealiable. On the other hand Herodotus mentions that the Athenians were in fact Pelasgians ( who he does not associate with the Hellenic name) originally and were essentially Hellenized. Maybe you could add some insight into this.

You have it a little mixed up.Homer initially called Hellas a big area which had as a center Thessaly (the pelasgian Argos) and was inhabitted by the Myrmidones.It was part of the state of Pileas.He also called all the people that joined the campaign to Troy pan-hellenes.(+¦+í+¡+Ñ+½+½+º+¡+Ñ+¦).Later on Thucidides says that the name Hellas and hellenes became more general reffering to all the people that spoke the same language whether or not they were part of the Troyan campaign. Also,Thucidides says that the first cooperation between the hellenes was the campaign to Troy. The word hellas consists of the sub words "heos" and "laos".And many words derive from these two,such as Achilleas,Pallas(King),Arhelaos e.t.c.

"And a father, Phillip the IInd, a Timenid himself, from the ones that conquered the Southern tribes and made Hellenes out of them". The word "hellenization" may not be so accurate.You hellenize someone that is not a hellen.For example a Persian.Since 1200 b.c and in the time of king Hellenas all the tribes of the hellenic peninsula (including the dorians)started to call themselves hellenes and the peninsula "Hellas".The dorians descented some 200 or 300 years later.

Oh dear, the Timenid fiction again.Good on you Efstathios, keep up the corrections mate.Paralus

The word "hellenization" may not be so accurate.You hellenize someone that is not a hellen Yes but Herodotus does state that the Athenians (Ionians) were infact Pelasgians(non Greek) before they passed into the Hellenic Family.Once they passed into the Hellenic family they ceased to be Pelasgians.He also stated that the Pelasgian language was all but dead except in Lemos I beleive he said it was still spoken during his time.Of course he is refering to very distent origins of Athenians. At one point the other neighbooring Latin tribes were distict from the Romans but one can say they became Romanized and eventually just Roman.What about England? I am sure that it took a while to AngloSaxonize pre Anglosaxon populations of Roman Briton.

Jim,hail There are many theories about the pelasgians,and even the ancient writers didnt know much about them.But Herodotus does state that pelasgians have been autocthonus and that the hellenes were a brach of them that later got seperated.Aeschylus and Dionysius from Allicarnasus consider the pelasgians as hellenes.And Isocratis tells the Athenians that they are aytocthonus coming from the pelasgians. Dont forget about the first mythical-historical Kings of Athens like Cecrops who are dated back to 1500 b.c and who had hellenic names.The date 1500 is of course by estimate and it might have been 2500 bc or way earlier.
And remember Athena and Poseidon who according to the tale competed at who would be the patron deity of the city by giving precious gifts.Athena Gave the olive tree and Poseidon gave water.The athenians chose Athena's gift,and chose her as their patron deity and named their city Athena,but Poseidon gave them the gift of water anyway.So in the end Athens had both 2 gifts,the olive trees (olive,wood) and the water (which obviously represented that they would become masters at sea,having a powerfull navy).So, if these early athenians were pelasgians,then they had the same gods and maybe similar language to the later athenians.

Jim HailWe English? Its fare to say that there is no real English without swearing we have got to be the most Bastardised Nation on Earth. We have benn rolled over a few times from. Romans. Vikings. Normans etc.Its often said that the real Englishe were actually druids and the remnants of such people are only now found in Wales. I dont know what it is to be English only that our history is pretty rich with Histories soldiers armies etc. Once was the power of the earth but not any more. Maybe we were a good melting pot over the centuries and learned from Conquerers and became Great through it. I can accept our history and acknowledge what we are. We have great history and done great things. All in the past. I really couldnt say what England or been Englishis. Particulaly at a time in our country of political correctness. Where anything English is regarded as offensive and has to be altered as not to upset religious minorities. The Teeth of the English Bulldog have been pulled out.Kenny

The Thracians, who also spoke greek, had the same religion as the Greeks, wrote in Greek (yet are not called "Greeks" by anyone) also changed over time. The Bulgars came and occupied their territory. Now, Thracians don't exist, but Bulgarians do. The same can ineed be true with the Athenians as Jim said, though I did not realize Herodotus said they were originally not Greek. I have a difficult time with that testimony, for to me I always (correctly or incorrectly ASSUMED) they were Myceaen. While Herodotus is a much more valuable source than say Hesiod, I can't take everything Herodotus says as Gospel. Not to start controversy but lets take the Iraq wars as an example. the UN is on US territory, and it was really a USA and UK war against Iraq. It was their propaganda that made it an "international war against a barbarian named Sadam." Thus, historians will call it probably a UN join effort over time, at least in US history books, to propagate the government's views over popular US opinion (and reality). I see the same with Alexander and the Greek allies. It was propaganda, and hostage troops. Yet, how do historians record that? Human behavior with propaganda has changed little over time, but people's borders and "name sake" changes over time.
Bob

Not to drive my point to hard, some may call it fiction, others good propaganda. I beleive Alexander's propaganda train made up a great many lies that became truth. Did Plutarch really buy into the propaganda Alexander was conceived by a snake (Zeus) and Philip who watched it with one eye was punished for watching a god mate that he lost his one eye? Historians can be part of a propaganda train, and often the government dictates what historians can write or even publish. "Fiction" is most often "Propaganda" for political purposes. THe world saw two nations attack Iraq, not the UN. That is how I see it.

I forgot to state that the US president in his addresses to the nation called the Iraq affair a "coalition." Was it really? Well, like 10% coalition MAYBE, but 90% US and UK. This was bush's propaganda, and I believe Plutarch bought into some of Alexanders propaganda of divine origins, whether or not alexander believed he was truly divine would be an interesting question.

This was bush's propaganda, and I believe Plutarch bought into some of Alexanders propaganda of divine origins Are you trying suggest Bush is NOT sincere about spreading the gospel of Democracy to the oppressed Iraqi's.? ( not to say that we do have some legitimate strategic geopolitical interest in the reagion ) Are you trying to suggest that the reason why we entered WWW 1
to make the world safe for Democracy was not sincere? Are you trying to suggest that the British leaders in WWW1
did not really beleive the Germans were savage barbaric Asiatic Huns ? Was the Soviet Empire really concerned with spreading the gospel of Communism to the poor working people of the world or was it a way for the Soviet Union to use an ideology to justify there imperial power? And what about Stalin was he really a Russian Patriot dedicated to preserving the Fatherland prior to the German invasion ( signed treaties with Hitler) or was he more concerned with his own power? Do political leaders try to invoke moral justification ( usually with some truth )inorder to use war to meet strategic geopolitical economic or to boast national morale to get support for a larger purpose? Was The Pan Hellenic crusade that ATG mentioned to Darius in his letters similar to the above to examples some extent? Was some Greeks beleive ATG was devine? Did some Romans beleive the Emperor should be worshipped as a God? Did some British beleive in the Devine Right of Kings?Did Kings convince themselves that they were Devive? If conquered people such as Egyptians Persians ect beleived Kings should be devine would it not make sense for ATG to be devine as there new ruler?

Hi Kenny, Any ethno racial cultural group that beleives they are 100% pedigree English ,ancient Greek or modern, ect of course is delusional. I brought up the English example in reference to Hammond who compared Greek tribes(originating in Northern Greece near Olympus) conquering and assimulating pre Hellenic populations on the Greek pennisula to the Anglo Saxon conquest of Roman/Keltic England.If your intrested I will be happy to reference the details.What is evident is that the tombs of Myceane were that of a people north of the Peloponese.Similar findings that predate Myceane exist in Northwestern Greece. Also should be noted that even some so called prominent Athenians had non Greek blood. Demosthanes was part Sythian Thucydides had some Thracian Ancestry Greeks in Ionia (Asia Minor) frequently took wives from Lydians Carrians

As for Political Correctness it is alive here in America as well.A new thought police essentially .

This thread is straying into modern politics. Please can everyone stop doing this, or it will be deleted. The forum is about Alexander the Great and his times, and not modern geo-political issues.This forum is intended to be a friendly place where people of different cultures can find out about , and discuss, Alexander and his times ; we expect that our forum members will remember this and take care not to offend others.

The Thracians, who also spoke greek, had the same religion as the Greeks, wrote in Greek (yet are not called "Greeks" by anyone) Thracians wrote in Greek but had distict names and gods some got absorbed into the Greek culture along the southern fringes.I have a difficult time with that testimony, for to me I always (correctly or incorrectly ASSUMED) they were Myceaen. Greeks never referred to themselves as Myceneans in the Homeric era danaans,argeives,acheans --Myceane was simply the leading state that led the alliance -athens was insignificant then but did exist then- if they were pelasgian ( peoples that became absorded into Hellenes) that occured before the days of homer--like saying the orgins of the English were Celtic before the anglosaxon element arised.Athenians did consider themselves kind of a distict genos in the sense that they were a local people unlike the dorians. There certainly were pre hellenic peoples in greeceI can't take everything Herodotus says as Gospel. One does not take anything including the Bible as pure fact.However, his writings are consistent with earlier accounts.On the other hand his discriptions of foreign peoples Egyptians Sythian ect are suspect since they were obviously taken from a Greek perspective .