Re: Macedonian Legions

Paralus · Post by **Paralus** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:27 am

G'day Lyngos.I'm well aware of the terms of engagement of the Roman trooper. Only too well aware of the "latafundia" and the populist stands of the Gracchi brothers etc.The legions which were referred to in the original post are no later than the time of Augustus. We are speaking of legions formed in the Republican to late Republican era. These GÇô without exception GÇô were Roman (Italian) legions. They *were* named for the province/country in which they served. A hint: unlike the Greeks, the Romans did not consider Corinth a country/province.The particular legion (Macedonian) that Kenny is referring to is most likely Caesars'. It was formed during the (first) Triumvir war. It was not recruited from Macedonia. It was not made up of "Macedonian citizens".Romans were not particularly known for their profligate handing out of the honour of Roman citizenship. Particularly during the Republican period.Paralus.

amyntoros · Post by **amyntoros** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:53 am

Paralus, I believe this might help in supporting your post - it has links to the history of all the Roman legions.http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/legions.htmI don't think you will be familiar with Jona, the owner of the site, as he is rarely on Pothos any more. He wrote a book on Alexander which was published in Dutch, and I do believe he is now writing one on a particular era of Roman history. The whole of his Livius site is an excellent source of accurate information.Best regards,Amyntoros

Lyngos · Post by **Lyngos** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:24 am

"The particular legion (Macedonian) that Kenny is referring to is most likely Caesars'. It was formed during the (first) Triumvir war. It was not recruited from Macedonia. It was not made up of "Macedonian citizens"."Read LIVY (Rome and the Mediterranean, XXXII 28)
page 96 on Penguin Classics:".........Each of the two praetors assigned to SPAIN was given 8,000 infantry, DRAWN FROM ALLIES, OR FROM THOSE OF LATIN STATUS.................."There goes your "Spanish Legion", just like it were made all the other ones.Read STRABO XVII -3- PARAGRAPH 25.
The 5th, 6th, and 7th of the strategic eparchies were including Hellas, and it is precisely from there where were the legionaires of the 5th,6th and the twin 7th.
Also read TACITUS I-80.
Regards to all........L.
George sofoklis Tsapanos
Visalia, Ca"Vlachs, the autochthonous
of the Hellenic peninsula".

Paralus · Post by **Paralus** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:51 am

G'day Lynkos.It's becoming rather difficult to follow your rather strident line of argument. The legion(s) that Kenny referred to were Roman, not of Macedonian origin. They served in Macedon.But, to your line of thought:"I am sorry, the Romans after they made FREE CITIZENS the people of the conquered lands, they made them ROMANS and then placed them in their Legions."I'd beg to disagree. Not likely. In the era of the mid to later empire that occurred by necessity. Again, we are speaking here of the Republic and late Republic GÇô including legions inherited by Octavian. But, lets allow that to slip through to the keeper as a given. Challenged you come up with:".........Each of the two praetors assigned to SPAIN was given 8,000 infantry, DRAWN FROM ALLIES, OR FROM THOSE OF LATIN STATUS.................."Right, now we speak of "allies" and "allied infantry". Alexander utilised much allied infantry: they were not Macedonians nor were they Macedonian phalangites.. The Diadochoi used much infantry, including native phalanx levies "trained in the Macedonian fashion": they were not Macedonian nor were they Macedonian phalangites.
The Roman army in Republican times was a citizen army, predominantly farmer based. Indeed in early Republican times, the qualification for enlistment was money and property. By the time of the wars against Carthage and Macedonia that had been widened to the "peasant plot farmer". It was the Roman view GÇô as Cato the Elder ("On Agriculture") put it GÇô that "the men who have roots in the land make the bravest and toughest soldiers".Thus Roman citizen farmers formed the legions and left their land. It was the sight (and number) of these unattended fields that spurred Tiberius Gracchus into his populist agrarian reforms, the Ager Publicus.It was the upheavals of the close of the second century (to expand into the full Samnite/Italian "allies' revolt" in the early first century that saw Marius expand that "draught" to all GÇô Roman GÇô citizens (107). The Roman legions were now professional and part of that pay was the Ager Publicus to break the "latafundia". It was to prove a rather fertile vein for popular politicians for some time to come.The legions to which Kenny referred are Roman. They are not ethnic Macedonian. And those you refer to above are "allied infantry".Paralus.

marcus · Post by **marcus** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:53 am

Absolutely, Paralus. Sorry I've left you to do all the arguing about a point I originally made; but I couldn't have argued it better.CheersMarcus

Paralus · Post by **Paralus** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:06 am

G'day Marcus.Apologia unneccesary, I believe I may be enjoying it!I suppose I could have waxed lyrical on Roman "consular" armies. Armies GÇô self evidently GÇô not raised in Bythia, Botswana or Bactria but in Italy (as we now know and call it).The entire point of Roman policy - after the absolute butchery of Lucius Aemilius Paullus' victory over Perseus at Pydna in 168 - was the total emasculation of Macedon. As a state; as a military force and, as a concept.

The last thing one would then do would be to constitute a "Macedonian legion". A legion comprised of nationals from a state you'd recently taken great pains to ensure had no "corporate" identity.
Paralus.

kennyxx · Post by **kennyxx** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:23 pm

Michael HailI realise your Roman mititary History better than mine. But my rational is by the time of Caesar the legions were not could not have been pure Roman nor Italian stock. Although I doubt a legion was comprised of pure Macedonian blood and soldiers.As you stated by the time of Julius Caesar Macedonia was a lame well slaughtered duck. Hardly capable of defending itself let alone contributing a Macedonian Legion. By the time of Caesar im sorry to say it Macedon was nothing.My original point was the Mention of Macedonian legions and the Mentioning of other Macedonian wording wherever there were Romans in battle on the big screen. Could I be so bold at to say on screen it gave the Romans more street cred. If they were closer in time I guess wed have had Roman legions mixing it with Mongols.Kenny